Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

We be jammin'

30 posts / 0 new

Last post

Mon, 2009-09-21 06:07

DaveS

We be jammin'

Aside from needing to maintain a (potentially-remote) connection, are there any disadvantages to jamming? AFAICT, there are not, which seems somewhat problematic to me: Player A buys three synthetic morphs to swap between, plus he also occasionally sleeves into an infomorph for mesh activity. Every time he moves from one morph to another, he has to make Integration and Alienation tests (at -20 for the infomorph, -10 for the synthetics, and potentially an extra -30 for "exotic" synthetics) which inflict substantial action penalties or Stress damage if failed. The Integration test even inflicts a penalty on physical actions on [i]success[/i] unless it's an Exceptional or Critical success. Player B buys three identical synthetic morphs, but adds a Ghostrider module to each. He sleeves himself as an infomorph and spends all his time migrating from one Ghostrider to another and jamming whichever morph contains the Ghostrider he's currently occupying. AFAICT, he controls his jammed morph and experiences the world through it in exactly the same way as Player A controls and experiences his sleeved morph - except Player B never has to test Integration or Alienation, so he never suffers any action penalties or Stress damage for moving about. The only drawbacks suffered by Player B are the additional Low cost per morph for adding the Ghostriders and requiring one extra Action Turn per switch to initiate jamming after moving to the new Ghostrider. The only stated drawback to jamming I've seen mentioned, communication issues, does not apply as the Ghostrider places the infomorph literally inside the other morph's head, giving a direct wired connection. Given that jamming and sleeving seem to behave more-or-less identically, why does one require Integration tests which can give action penalties for days afterward and Alienation tests which can inflict Stress damage, even if you're moving into a morph identical to the one you just left, while the other takes only a few seconds (1 Action Turn = 3 seconds) to adjust to and is automatically successful, even if you're shifting from a baseline Splicer to a tricked-out Swarmanoid?

Mon, 2009-09-21 06:13

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

The only weakness that I could see is that since your ego is running on the ghostrider rather than the cyberbrain, it's easier to be (indirectly) brainhacked. The hacker just needs to hack the ego-empty cyberbrain and now he has the ability to shut down the attached ghostrider. It's not too likely to be a bigger issue than getting brainhacked in the conventional way, but it is an added layer of vulnerability for rare cases.

Mon, 2009-09-21 06:40

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

BTW, you raise an interesting point that sleeving from one morph into an identical morph requires alienation and intergration tests. Note that this should apply when shifting from infomorph to infomorph too. Really, you're just alpha forking yourself and deleting the original that would otherwise be left behind. And a new alpha fork requires alienation and integration tests. This is what will prevent the ghostrider-hopping 'cheat' (I'm not condemning it - I think it's a good idea). Note that having Right at Home (Infomorph) would be a great work-around to this flaw.

Tue, 2009-09-22 14:38

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

One noticeable disadvantage is the fact that you don't get the aptitude bonuses for jamming a morph. For instance, you don't get a +5 COO, +20 REF or +10 SOM with a reaper morph, simply because those are aspects of being the morph. You can't get access to any mental enhancements (they modify the mind of the morph). You can't take advantage of mind-enhancing drugs (if talking a biomorph with a cyberbrain). You are limited to a speed of 3 (the speed of an Infomorph) and further limited by whatever the maximum speed of the morph is (restricted to mental actions on any other action phases, because the morph simply can't keep up with your mind). Lastly, death is a bigger bitch for you than it is for most. You don't have a cortical stack (it's attached to the cyberbrain, not the ghostrider module), so death has a greater risk. Even if you somehow did get a cortical stack attached to your ghostrider module (not sure if that works), you will not only suffer the stresses of a normal death, but also the stresses of being dumped from a jam... and that adds up.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2009-09-22 16:48

DaveS

Re: We be jammin'

That's a reasonable set of houserules for discouraging players from giving up sleeving and just jamming all the time, although I don't believe they're supported by RAW. But that's beside the point. I'm still having a conceptual disconnect over the question of why sleeving into a morph is so much more difficult to adjust to than jamming into it. In the end, you're wearing the same body, so acclimation to controlling it and the psychological effects of looking in the mirror and seeing it as "you" seem like they should be the same either way. If anything, sleeving should be the easier route, since a cyberbrain is clearly the preferred way to interface with your body. It simply doesn't make sense to me that sleeving is such a big deal while jamming is so trivial.

Tue, 2009-09-22 19:20

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

DaveS wrote:
That's a reasonable set of houserules for discouraging players from giving up sleeving and just jamming all the time, although I don't believe they're supported by RAW. But that's beside the point. I'm still having a conceptual disconnect over the question of why sleeving into a morph is so much more difficult to adjust to than jamming into it. In the end, you're wearing the same body, so acclimation to controlling it and the psychological effects of looking in the mirror and seeing it as "you" seem like they should be the same either way. If anything, sleeving should be the easier route, since a cyberbrain is clearly the preferred way to interface with your body. It simply doesn't make sense to me that sleeving is such a big deal while jamming is so trivial.

Houserules? How exactly is this houserules? Mental enhancements enhance the mind, and cannot affect one that isn't there. Infomorphs have specific aptitudes (exactly what your aptitudes are with no bonuses), and nowhere in the jamming section does it say anything about you getting the aptitude bonuses of a morph you are jamming. In fact, drones never have aptitude bonus at all, almost definitely because you can only jam them. If you read the jam section, it says explicitly that you take stress when dumped from a jammed shell. 10% of it is common sense (such as not being able to use a cortical stack from a ghostrider module, being limited to your own speed, and not being able to take advantage of mind-based drugs). The other 90% of it is right there in the book. That said, jamming is "trivial" mentally because you still have the psychological crutch of knowing that it isn't your body. Looking in the mirror isn't as big a shock when it doesn't feel like you are actually doing it. Think of it as wearing VR goggles while playing a first-person shooter and staring in a mirror to see the game character. Completely different sensation from waking up one morning, looking in the mirror and realizing you are now a woman.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Tue, 2009-09-22 19:59

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

The 'occupant' of the ghostrider module can be given access to the implants of the 'host-body' - including mental enhancements, and strictly speaking, the cortical stack. It's right in the last line describing the ghostrider module.

Tue, 2009-09-22 20:46

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

It says they can access those implants, but that doesn't mean much... only that they can access them. For instance, a ghostriding ego can access your enhanced senses, and see through your eyes, see recordings from the mnemonic augmentations, hack through access jacks, and even trigger your drug glands... but accessing would do nothing for, say, the math boost mental augmentation (it's an alteration to the brain to make the inhabiting ego capable of doing math calculations super-fast... but there's no inhabiting ego) or the multiple personality partition (you can't partition an ego that isn't there) or adrenal boost (can't boost a mind that isn't there) or multi-tasking unit (can't fork an ego that isn't there). It'll take some GM eye to handle, but your best bet is to assume that the morph's brain is empty when deciding what can and can't be beneficial to a ghostriding ego (because it is). Anything that is useless to an empty brain is useless to the jamming player. Plenty of enhancements are still very useful (virtually all physical enhancements, for example).

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 02:12

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

Decivre wrote:
It says they can access those implants, but that doesn't mean much... only that they can access them.

Access: the ability, right, or permission to approach, enter, speak with, or use. Note the 'use' at the end there. Under some GMs, your approach may be taken, while my interpretation is going to be followed under others. Neither is right or wrong, it's merely a matter of how it's houseruled.

Wed, 2009-09-23 02:36

#10

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

Again, just because someone can use something does not mean they can actually utilize it. A man with no arms isn't going to have a use for gloves, but he's still allowed to try. Mental enhancements enhance the mind of the morph... and in case you weren't paying attention, the morph's mind is completely empty when you are jamming. That's the point: the puppet sock is running the body, and the mind is completely dead. If the mind is dead, all those pretty bells and whistles in the mind are not doing anything.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 04:48

#11

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

I disagree. The example of the Math Boost being the most basic - I feel that a ego/fork operating in a Ghostrider Module can make use of the Math Boost. You are certainly free to disagree, but your interpretation is no more or less correct than mine.

Wed, 2009-09-23 08:10

#12

DaveS

Re: We be jammin'

Decivre wrote:
That said, jamming is "trivial" mentally because you still have the psychological crutch of knowing that it isn't your body. Looking in the mirror isn't as big a shock when it doesn't feel like you are actually doing it. Think of it as wearing VR goggles while playing a first-person shooter and staring in a mirror to see the game character. Completely different sensation from waking up one morning, looking in the mirror and realizing you are now a woman.

False dichotomy. You're wearing a morph that isn't really "you" when you inhabit the cyberbrain just as much as you are when you're jamming it. This also doesn't address the issue of the Integration test. When sleeving, no matter how similar the new morph may be to your original body, anything but a critical success means that you need at least a few minutes to acclimate to the new morph and, on a failed test, you suffer action penalties for [i]days[/i] afterward; in the case of a Severe Failure, these penalties even extend to mental actions. In contrast, when jamming, it takes all of three seconds to initiate jamming and then you have full control of the jammed body with no penalties to any actions, all automatically, with no tests required, even if the new morph is something as radically different as going from a basic splicer into an octomorph, reaper, or swarmanoid. If jamming is really that much easier, then why isn't it the standard? Even if we accept your position that jamming shouldn't give access to some implants, most people don't have those implants anyhow - if you're in a basic Case, why go to the trouble of sleeving when it's so much easier to just jam it? Finally, modern, real-world technology has been able to create "out of body experiences" in which test subjects experience the illusion of being in the body of a mannequin or another person. Given the advances in tech between now and EP, I see no reason to expect that your VR goggles scenario would be any less believable than the other. Links to news articles regarding the experiments I mentioned: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm http://boingboing.net/2008/12/03/experiment-provides.html "[i]Manipulation of the visual perspective, in combination with the receipt of correlated multisensory information from the body was sufficient to trigger the illusion that another person's body or an artificial body was one's own. This effect was so strong that people could experience being in another person's body when facing their own body and shaking hands with it.[/i]" http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12531-outofbody-experiences-are-al... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/health/02mind.html "[i]Swedish researchers presented evidence that the brain, when tricked by optical and sensory illusions, can quickly adopt any other human form, no matter how different, as its own.[/i] [i]“You can see the possibilities, putting a male in a female body, young in old, white in black and vice versa...”[/i]"

Wed, 2009-09-23 08:19

#13

DaveS

Re: We be jammin'

HappyDaze wrote:
The 'occupant' of the ghostrider module can be given access to the implants of the 'host-body' - including mental enhancements, and strictly speaking, the cortical stack. It's right in the last line describing the ghostrider module.

While this is true, it's not actually relevant. In the scenario I proposed, the morph is being controlled via the puppet sock, not directly from the ghostrider module. The ghostrider was only introduced in that scenario so that the jamming character would have a hardwired connection. The whole question would work nearly as well with, say, a character sleeved into a swarmanoid who lands on the other morphs' access jacks to get a hard connection and jam them that way.

Wed, 2009-09-23 09:41

#14

Skimble

Re: We be jammin'

As an earlier poster noted your player B would need to make Alienation and Continuity tests every time he hopped from one ghostrider module to the next, so he's only avoiding the physical integration test by pursuing this course of action. Apart from that the main difference between Jamming and Resleeving is that jamming brings the remote's sensorium to the user, it doesn't make the remote the user's body. There is a definite distinction between these two situations. When Jamming the operator remains conscious the entire time and continuity is therefore never an issue. Alienation isn't an issue because the user knows that the body he is using is just a remote. He never suffers the crises of identity that can result from fully being a different physical entity. Alternatively, you might view it that jamming a shell can cause Alienation, but the system doesn't bother to keep track of it because the stress caused by jamming goes away at the end of the jamming stint. As a house rule you could easily rule that extended jamming sessions cause Alienation tests just as resleeving does. Finally, physical integration is primarily a matter of getting used to the effects that the morph has on the ego and vice versa. Hormones, physical strength and form factor etc. are all elements that influence this. The jamming ego receives sensory data from the morph being jammed, but he doesn't suffer the physical effects of the unfamiliar chemicals (or electrical feedback systems) on his own ego. I presume also that the puppet sock mediates and buffers the data so that it is as intuitive and simple for any ego to use the shell as possible. It would be extremely unhelpful if a user had to undergo physical integration every time he or she jammed into an extremely alien shell.

Wed, 2009-09-23 10:28

#15

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

Skimble wrote:
As an earlier poster noted your player B would need to make Alienation and Continuity tests every time he hopped from one ghostrider module to the next, so he's only avoiding the physical integration test by pursuing this course of action.

Technically you only have to make the tests when copying without erasing, but making it for any copying is a fine houserule to deal with the problems noted in the OP.

Wed, 2009-09-23 13:52

#16

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

HappyDaze wrote:
I disagree. The example of the Math Boost being the most basic - I feel that a ego/fork operating in a Ghostrider Module can make use of the Math Boost. You are certainly free to disagree, but your interpretation is no more or less correct than mine.

I agree, just not in the way that you're implying. Utilizing mental enhancements is as easy as loading the cyberbrain with your muse and letting her make them function. It wouldn't be hard at all. The only disadvantage is that your ego can't directly access them because it isn't in the brain. You can't utilize mental enhancements for the same reason that you can't get drunk by making the jammed morph drink.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 14:13

#17

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

DaveS wrote:
False dichotomy. You're wearing a morph that isn't really "you" when you inhabit the cyberbrain just as much as you are when you're jamming it. This also doesn't address the issue of the Integration test. When sleeving, no matter how similar the new morph may be to your original body, anything but a critical success means that you need at least a few minutes to acclimate to the new morph and, on a failed test, you suffer action penalties for days afterward; in the case of a Severe Failure, these penalties even extend to mental actions.

You are not inhabiting the cyberbrain when you jam a morph. You are controlling the morph from a brain emulator (the ghostrider module) attached to the body. It is a different issue. It takes an Integration and Alienation tests to get into the ghostrider already, there's no need for another one. That said, if it bothers you so much, just considering the Integration and Alienation tests for entering the ghostrider to be the tests for the body itself.

DaveS wrote:
In contrast, when jamming, it takes all of three seconds to initiate jamming and then you have full control of the jammed body with no penalties to any actions, all automatically, with no tests required, even if the new morph is something as radically different as going from a basic splicer into an octomorph, reaper, or swarmanoid. If jamming is really that much easier, then why isn't it the standard? Even if we accept your position that jamming shouldn't give access to some implants, most people don't have those implants anyhow - if you're in a basic Case, why go to the trouble of sleeving when it's so much easier to just jam it?

For many reasons, both mechanical and otherwise. When jamming from a ghostrider, the obvious one is either the lack of cortical stack or (if you rule that you can use the cortical stack) the extra stress you will take from dying in the morph. When jamming from a distance, the obvious ones are that your real body is vulnerable and your signal can be jammed. From a roleplaying standpoint, there's the fact that people would probably not like idea of not actually being in the body. Also, remember that cyberware is somewhat frowned upon, and synthmorphs are considered a low-class option. Biomorphs simply feel better. Lastly, for me, there's booze. You can't get drunk while ghostriding the whip, boss.

DaveS wrote:
Finally, modern, real-world technology has been able to create "out of body experiences" in which test subjects experience the illusion of being in the body of a mannequin or another person. Given the advances in tech between now and EP, I see no reason to expect that your VR goggles scenario would be any less believable than the other. Links to news articles regarding the experiments I mentioned: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6960612.stm http://boingboing.net/2008/12/03/experiment-provides.html "Manipulation of the visual perspective, in combination with the receipt of correlated multisensory information from the body was sufficient to trigger the illusion that another person's body or an artificial body was one's own. This effect was so strong that people could experience being in another person's body when facing their own body and shaking hands with it." http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn12531-outofbody-experiences-are-al... http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/02/health/02mind.html "Swedish researchers presented evidence that the brain, when tricked by optical and sensory illusions, can quickly adopt any other human form, no matter how different, as its own. “You can see the possibilities, putting a male in a female body, young in old, white in black and vice versa...”"

Yeah, but the change is more dramatic then jumping from one human body to another. Especially since we're talking about cyberbrains, chances are you are jumping into a synthmorph, which is decidedly not human. As for the rest, there are still decidedly large differences between a flat (normal human) and splicer. The differences between a flat and all other human biomorphs is even more dramatic. Final note: you get a +20 bonus to integration when jumping into your original morph type, so they did take that last part into account.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 14:25

#18

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

HappyDaze wrote:
Technically you only have to make the tests when copying without erasing, but making it for any copying is a fine houserule to deal with the problems noted in the OP.

Seriously, page 272, bottom paragraph. An infomorph jumping from one ghostrider to another has to make alienation and integration tests, same as everyone else. It's all there in the manual.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 16:27

#19

Skimble

Re: We be jammin'

Copying with deleting is just infomorph resleeving and is therefore still subject to Alienation and Continuity tests.

Wed, 2009-09-23 20:02

#20

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

[I]Infomorphs may copy themselves to other devices, typically erasing themselves from the previous device as they go. Infomorphs that copy without erasing are treated as forks.[/I] I was pointing out this sentence that made a distinction between erasing and not erasing. It's in the manual too. Seriously. [I]Infomorphs may be resleeved into physical morphs, following normal resleeving rules.[/I] This also implies that the standard resleeving rules don't apply to copying, only to resleeving into physical morphs. We do know that they apply to initially instantiating as an infomorph from the preceeding sentence, but nothing is said about copying causing more C & A. Seriously. Now show me - specifically with a quote - where copying is resleeving. I couldn't find it. I also couldn't find anything that specifically notes moving to a ghostrider module is resleeving. I think these are all fine houserules - hell, I was the one that suggested them - but I don't think that it's RAW. Seriously. Yeah, there's some snark in this post. Seriously.

Wed, 2009-09-23 20:14

#21

puke

Re: We be jammin'

there always is. please consider that others find it unpleasant, and that it may have been the cause of the earlier friction in this thread.

Wed, 2009-09-23 20:31

#22

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

Page 272: [i]"Characters instantiating as infomorphs must make Continuity and Alienation Tests, just like resleeving."[/i] Then there's page 265: [i]"At their core, infomorphs are just programs and so they are treated like other software in terms of rules. They must be run on a specific personal computer or server. If that device is shut down, the infomorph also shuts down into a state of unconsciousness, restarting along with the device. If the device is destroyed, the infomorph is killed along with it."[/i] In other words, whatever computer or server an infomorph happens to be inhabiting [i]is their morph[/i]. Jumping to another one is treated exactly the same as jumping from any other body to another. You aren't magically immune to these tests (though you can be with the right trait).

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 21:07

#23

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

Decivre wrote:
In other words

That's certainly one interpretation of what's written, but another is that once you're an infomorph, you can move (copy/delete) from device to device without a need to repeatedly instantiate. IOW, once an infomorph, you don't check again until you take on another morph and switch back. The device you occupy is NOT your morph, it's just your current 'hab' to use a real-world equivalent. I wouldn't run it this way, but nothing you've pointed out explicitly says it's incorrect per RAW.

Wed, 2009-09-23 21:11

#24

HappyDaze

Re: We be jammin'

puke wrote:
it may have been the cause of the earlier friction in this thread

So something I post after their posts is the cause of 'earlier friction'? You have the cause coming after the effect. That's a bit backwards don't you think?

Wed, 2009-09-23 22:13

#25

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

HappyDaze wrote:
That's certainly one interpretation of what's written, but another is that once you're an infomorph, you can move (copy/delete) from device to device without a need to repeatedly instantiate. IOW, once an infomorph, you don't check again until you take on another morph and switch back. The device you occupy is NOT your morph, it's just your current 'hab' to use a real-world equivalent. I wouldn't run it this way, but nothing you've pointed out explicitly says it's incorrect per RAW.

Except you can't. Each device one jumps to is effectively the same as each morph one jumps to. Nowhere does it even imply that a character can easily hop from one device to another (especially since it would probably be an important thing to note that surviving as an infomorph is as simple as transmitting yourself from device to device). This sounds like a "if nothing specific disallows it, it's allowed" argument. Hey, I'd love to claim that my Sylph morph has 30 penises and shoots lasers out of its eyes, but just because the books doesn't say [i]they don't[/i] doesn't make it true. An infomorph hopping from device to device is just as susceptible to alienation and integration tests as an ego hopping between multiple clone bodies. Just because they are identical doesn't mean you're immune (but you can be with the right trait).

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Wed, 2009-09-23 23:10

#26

Skimble

Re: We be jammin'

From the perspective of the ego that finds itself in the new hardware, there is absolutely nothing to distinguish the process of being forked from the process of being moved from one location to the other. In both instances the ego is copied from one device to the next, it's just that in forking the original copy is not deleted. If forking explicitly causes Alienation and Continuity tests, it therefore follows logically that moving and deleting the original does the same. If a process similar to the continuous resleeving that can be achieved with two ego bridges were possible for infomorphs then perhaps this would not be the case, but my reading is that the infomorph can't be copied/copy itself across to a different device in the running state, so the process involves copying a flat backup file across and then instantiating itself as an infomorph on the new device.

Thu, 2009-09-24 00:08

#27

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

Skimble wrote:
If a process similar to the continuous resleeving that can be achieved with two ego bridges were possible for infomorphs then perhaps this would not be the case, but my reading is that the infomorph can't be copied/copy itself across to a different device in the running state, so the process involves copying a flat backup file across and then instantiating itself as an infomorph on the new device.

Copying from one virtual brain to another is an instantaneus affair. Both synthmorphs and infomorphs use virtual brains. Since the transfer is instantaneous, there is no need for continuity... continuity stress is caused by loss of time, and you don't lose time with something that's instantaneous. Hell, if I'm reading the book correctly, the primary purpose for an ego bridge is for converting a biological brain into a digital one and vice versa (it even does this when going to a new biomorph). If that's the case, going from synthmorph to synthmorph, synthmorph to infomorph, infomorph to synthmorph or infomorph to infomorph requires nothing more than a connection; whether access jack cable, touchlink, wireless connection or even farcaster.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Thu, 2009-09-24 14:11

#28

DaveS

Re: We be jammin'

Decivre wrote:
Hell, if I'm reading the book correctly, the primary purpose for an ego bridge is for converting a biological brain into a digital one and vice versa (it even does this when going to a new biomorph). If that's the case, going from synthmorph to synthmorph, synthmorph to infomorph, infomorph to synthmorph or infomorph to infomorph requires nothing more than a connection; whether access jack cable, touchlink, wireless connection or even farcaster.

That's how I read it as well. Regarding the discussion of the "Infomorph Resleeving" paragraph on p.272, I read "instantiating as an infomorph" to mean the initial taking on of infomorph form. While I can see how you could read it such that moving from device to device involves re-instantiating on each transfer, I do not find that to be the most natural reading of the phrase.

Thu, 2009-09-24 14:34

#29

DaveS

Re: We be jammin'

Decivre wrote:
DaveS wrote:
False dichotomy. You're wearing a morph that isn't really "you" when you inhabit the cyberbrain just as much as you are when you're jamming it.
You are not inhabiting the cyberbrain when you jam a morph.

Indeed, which is why I drew a distinction between "inhabit[ing] the cyberbrain" and "jamming [a morph]". Either way, your ego remains distinct from your morph - it isn't the real [i]you[/i], it's just a body that you're wearing. Granted, some folks may still feel a strong connection between their physical form and their sense of self (which, when you get down to it, is what the Alienation test seems to be intended to model), but the research I cited in my previous post seems to show pretty clearly that, even in real-world modern-day humans, this connection typically isn't that strong. When you start talking about transhumans who have worn half a dozen different bodies in the last year, then changing morphs seems unlikely to be any more traumatic than changing shirts. And, again... I'm not seeing any logic behind Alienation being more difficult for sleeving than for jamming. Either way, you're just wearing the morph. Either way, the morph is not [i]you[/i]. Either way, if you look in a mirror, you see the morph looking back at you.

Decivre wrote:
You are controlling the morph from a brain emulator (the ghostrider module) attached to the body. It is a different issue. It takes an Integration and Alienation tests to get into the ghostrider already, there's no need for another one. That said, if it bothers you so much, just considering the Integration and Alienation tests for entering the ghostrider to be the tests for the body itself.

[i]*sigh*[/i] Forget the ghostrider. I mentioned it as an incidental detail. It is not the core of my original question or my conceptual problems with sleeving vs. jamming. The [i]only[/i] reason I brought up ghostriders at all was because the trivial response to "what's the disadvantage of jamming relative to resleeving?" is "if you lose radio contact, you get dumped" and a hardwired connection (such as that provided by a ghostrider) eliminates the radio contact issue. Ghostrider or no, jamming gives you automatic and near-instant Integration, no matter how divergent the new morph may be from what you're accustomed to. Ghostrider or no, jamming gives you a complete exemption from Alienation, no matter what you see when you look in the mirror. Unless the experience of jamming a morph is significantly different from the experience of inhabiting that morph's cyberbrain, then I see no good in-game rationale for this discrepancy.

Thu, 2009-09-24 15:17

#30

Decivre

Re: We be jammin'

DaveS wrote:
Regarding the discussion of the "Infomorph Resleeving" paragraph on p.272, I read "instantiating as an infomorph" to mean the initial taking on of infomorph form. While I can see how you could read it such that moving from device to device involves re-instantiating on each transfer, I do not find that to be the most natural reading of the phrase.

By that logic, I should only need to do an integration and alienation test the first time I take a reaper morph, and should be able to move from reaper to reaper without penalty. So far as the game states, any time your mind in an active state (not in storage) moves from one active container to another (computer, synthmorph, biomorph... anything that can run your mind), or is put into an active container from an inactive state, it needs to make integration and alienation tests. This "infomorphs can teleport anywhere without penalty" ruling is just bizarre and sounds like a cheap way to exploit the mechanics of the game. Just because they don't have a specific rule on infomorphs doesn't mean the general rule on morphs doesn't still apply.

DaveS wrote:
Indeed, which is why I drew a distinction between "inhabit[ing] the cyberbrain" and "jamming [a morph]". Either way, your ego remains distinct from your morph - it isn't the real [i]you[/i], it's just a body that you're wearing. Granted, some folks may still feel a strong connection between their physical form and their sense of self (which, when you get down to it, is what the Alienation test seems to be intended to model), but the research I cited in my previous post seems to show pretty clearly that, even in real-world modern-day humans, this connection typically isn't that strong. When you start talking about transhumans who have worn half a dozen different bodies in the last year, then changing morphs seems unlikely to be any more traumatic than changing shirts. And, again... I'm not seeing any logic behind Alienation being more difficult for sleeving than for jamming. Either way, you're just wearing the morph. Either way, the morph is not [i]you[/i]. Either way, if you look in a mirror, you see the morph looking back at you.

One thing you need to note is that alienation and integration effects are rather minimal. The absolute maximum time you can spend acclimating to a body is 11 days (if you have a SOM score of 1 and roll a 93 or higher) with the absolute punishment being a -10 to rolls, excluding the rare possibility of critical failure. The absolute worst effect of alienation is 9 stress damage (again, if you have an INT of 1 and roll a 93 or higher), which can be relieved by a day with the therapist. In most cases with average people you're looking at a couple days of acclimation and a small amount of stress. That's pretty negligible for the long-term advantages, and not nearly as dramatic as you're making it out to be.

DaveS wrote:
[i]*sigh*[/i] Forget the ghostrider. I mentioned it as an incidental detail. It is not the core of my original question or my conceptual problems with sleeving vs. jamming. The [i]only[/i] reason I brought up ghostriders at all was because the trivial response to "what's the disadvantage of jamming relative to resleeving?" is "if you lose radio contact, you get dumped" and a hardwired connection (such as that provided by a ghostrider) eliminates the radio contact issue. Ghostrider or no, jamming gives you automatic and near-instant Integration, no matter how divergent the new morph may be from what you're accustomed to. Ghostrider or no, jamming gives you a complete exemption from Alienation, no matter what you see when you look in the mirror. Unless the experience of jamming a morph is significantly different from the experience of inhabiting that morph's cyberbrain, then I see no good in-game rationale for this discrepancy.

The ghostrider is core to your argument in making jamming more effective than entering the morph. Without the ghostrider, the disadvantages become numerous (requires a connection which can be severed, creates a maximum range from your actual body, your actual body is left limp and helpless while you jam). With the ghostrider, you have to make the alienation and integration tests [i]when you enter the module[/i], making any arguments about the advantages scholarly (you're basically doing the tests for the morph same as if you entered the brain). No matter what, there are advantages and disadvantages to both angles.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]