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Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???

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OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture
Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
In my head I've been dancing around rationalization of the reason that most people in 10AF prefer Biological forms. I can't help feeling that there is some *Real* reason that is more tangible than nostalgia or emotion, perhaps in the way it feels to live a Synthetic life but I've not been able to fully understand it. I haven't even been able to establish my own feelings on the subject. I'm constantly angry at my own frailties. My work beats the shit out of me (when I've got steady work), and I often find myself wishing, when some part of me gets cut/smashed/bent/tired, I could just walk out to the truck and bolt on a replacement. Or, better yet, that my parts were just tough enough to take the abuse I give them. On the other hand, my mind rebels when I imagine being totally synthetic--or worse, Digital. There's nothing any singularitarian can say to convince me I wouldn't Hate SynthLife. I'd like to know how other people here feel about the subject and why you think that Biolife is still more desireable than Synthlife to most transhumans in EP. Also; I started two short essays on the subject for our group's WIKI a long time ago. If you have time, I'd like you to read them and tell me what you think of my arguements so far. I've included my NTS (note to self) stuff. It's probably gibberish but it might give you an idea of where I was going eventually. STEEL LIBERATORS ESSAY (incomplete)
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[b]Arguments Against Synth Life[/b]
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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Hiyas! I believe, from the most basic & visceral sense, most humans* simply dislike/feel uncomfortable around something that looks artificial... It just "feels weird," would be the typical answer (if polite). Don't know if that helps at all tho', mebbe you were asking other stuff. SF *There are exceptions!
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Because when you get right down to it, being human is pretty awesome.
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
^ That. To wit: robots and cyberghosts never get to have sex, eat bacon or take a really satisfying dump. These things you just cannot simulate.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Though to be fair, I think I could do without the last one... yuck.
Treebore Treebore's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I agree, we like feeling alive, and a synth probably fails to do that. I imagine we could handle short periods in a synth, but I bet a lot of my psycho surgery clients come to me due to psychological problems that develop from being "living dead" for too long in a synth morph. So any synth morphs out there, come visit Dr. Neon Alchemist and mention being a member of this forum and I am sure I'll take care of you. ;)
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Lilith wrote:
Though to be fair, I think I could do without the last one... yuck.
Must be a prostate thing. Next time, resleeve as a man.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I actually don't understand the Steel movement. I can understand religious or racial or ethnic or whatever oppression and solidarity, but a synth is a mere circumstance. It's basically a 'be nice to poor people' movement, and that just feels weaksauce. If it's about class, let it be about class, not some class proxy. It's as if we had systematic oppression of people driving Kias, and a pro-Kia resistance movement. :/ What am I missing?
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
The Green Slime wrote:
Must be a prostate thing. Next time, resleeve as a man.
Oh, you are just [i]awful[/i].
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Lilith wrote:
Oh, you are just [i]awful[/i].
In truth I seem only to be trolling. The notion that happiness is predicated on any phenomena external to the mind (e.g. a steady supply of bacon, taking a long-desired poop) is something that doesn't sit well with me at all. That we tend to so strongly consider our currently-active avenues to happiness to be absolute and immutable is quite ridiculous (and why careers advertising are so profitable). I think a great deal of the basis for biochauvinism would be simple ignorant attachment. It's the same mental process that underlies almost every pleasure-seeking predilection we display. It's a [url=http://www.gghjournal.com/volume23/2/ab04.cfm]focusing illusion[/url], and it exists in many different forms throughout our lives. Babies never want to give up their pacifier. Children never want to quit eating sweets. Teenagers never want to give up sex. And by the time we're adults our fixations are too myriad and ingrained to list (though a web connection seems to always be in the top 3). We can't conceive of ever finding happiness if deprived of these things, and we'll fight tooth and nail to preserve them. Consider that at one stage in your life, you sincerely believed you would have died of grief if your pacifier was taken away. And yet it was taken away, and you're fine. What if [i]everything[/i] you presently believe you need is just another such focus illusion, and happiness has fundamentally nothing at all to do with worldly trappings? I think the last and hardest focusing illusion is the belief that we need to stay in a body forever. Acceptance of death / resleeving into some different form, both require surrendering our fixed ideas of self and cognising a reality outside of our current desire systems. I think only if we can hurdle that bar do we honestly get to call ourselves transhuman.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Gee, get all deep on us, why don't you? Perhaps it's childish, perhaps it's naive, perhaps it's a simple lie to tell myself. I don't deny any of that. But all the same, I still [i]like[/i] being human. I [i]like[/i] feeling and touching and sensing and doing all the things that I'm capable of doing in this body. It's not something I'm willing, personally, to throw away on a whim. Maybe after a few hundred years or so, my opinion will change. Perhaps I'll "mature", or perhaps my mind will simply "evolve" to a higher level of thinking. In the meantime, though... Well, I have the hedonism userbar for a reason, heh heh.
Tachi Tachi's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
What Lilith said. I just can't conceive of willingly giving up biological existence for electronic/mechanical. The very idea is repulsive. Perhaps oddly, the idea of mechanical [i]upgrades[/i] to a biological body don't bother me in the least. Though biomods would be preferred.

[IMG]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/ult_userbar.jpg[/...
[IMG]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/remade_userbar.pn...
I don't shoot a man for being incompetent in the Devil's work. I shoot him for being c

The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Lilith wrote:
Perhaps it's childish, perhaps it's naive, perhaps it's a simple lie to tell myself. I don't deny any of that. But all the same, I still [i]like[/i] being human. I [i]like[/i] feeling and touching and sensing and doing all the things that I'm capable of doing in this body. It's not something I'm willing, personally, to throw away on a whim.
I'm not advocating becoming a starving hermit ascetic or anything so extreme, just mindfulness of the fact that mental attachments have no concrete nature. We have a pleasure-seeking ego for a reason, it's the software that helps us navigate this reality and we wouldn't live long without it. But if the more we allow ourselves to love a thing, then the more we fear it's loss. It's a zero sum game. Realising that one's need for say, the aforementioned pacifier is a temporary desire system with no basis in actual reality needn't decrease one's enjoyment of it's rubbery splendidness one iota. It only decreases the fear of losing it. Result: Net reduction in negative stimuli. Some might call that enlightenment.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Yerameyahu wrote:
I actually don't understand the Steel movement. I can understand religious or racial or ethnic or whatever oppression and solidarity, but a synth is a mere circumstance. It's basically a 'be nice to poor people' movement, and that just feels weaksauce. If it's about class, let it be about class, not some class proxy. It's as if we had systematic oppression of people driving Kias, and a pro-Kia resistance movement. :/ What am I missing?
Your perspective feels a bit off to me. For one, sleeving in a synth is rarely a choice for some people, but, for another, sleeving in a synth isn't immoral and, for many people, is a preferred lifestyle choice. Imagine if a pill was invented tomorrow that made it easy to switch sexual orientation; a person could go from straight to gay and back again in a matter of days or even hours. Now, would this make it suddenly okay to discriminate against gays because, after all, it's a choice/mere circumstance? Synthmorph Pride! Out of the fabber and into the streets! Out of the fabber and into the streets!
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Who said synth-having was immoral? What? First, I didn't say anything about 'okay to discriminate'. I said, 'weird situation to even exist'. The anti-synth idea is fundamentally a class issue, right? Anti-proles. So why pretend it's about the *trappings* of prole-dom? It's as if the Sans-Culottes were literally fighting for the right to wear pantalons! That's crazy, right? I think your example is flawed (mixes sexual orientation and sex), but okay. Regardless of sex, homosexuality is currently understood to be innate. It's in the general category of religion, race, etc., that I described earlier. However, the Steel movement is not like that. It's about people who can't afford biomorphs, or choose synths out of solidarity, or *maybe* they just like synths (I think this third group is minor and tangential, though).
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
The Green Slime wrote:
But if the more we allow ourselves to love a thing, then the more we fear it's loss. It's a zero sum game.
“The risk of love is loss, and the price of loss is grief - But the pain of grief Is only a shadow When compared with the pain Of never risking love.” Hilary Stanton Zunin
Dimuscul Dimuscul's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Strangely I would like to be a Synth. I always think metal is better than flesh. That sensations can be simulated (sex, eating, etc) and that humans feelings are but simple chemical reactions witch constraint human decisions. It would be nice to turn of emotions when bad things happened, to highlight the ones that mattered, to erase pain ... to not get old or weak. I always joke with my wife, that the day someone invents a cyberarm with video playback, music, personal computer and net connectivity ... I will cut my arm to install one.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Yerameyahu wrote:
The anti-synth idea is fundamentally a class issue, right? Anti-proles. So why pretend it's about the *trappings* of prole-dom? It's as if the Sans-Culottes were literally fighting for the right to wear pantalons! That's crazy, right?
It is, and it isn't. For some, it's a class thing, but for others, it's just an arbitrary matter of disgust. For some, it's that anyone sleeved in a synth is less than human. For some, they consider people sleeved as synths to be TITAN sympathizers. Anti-synth sympathies have a wide variety of reasons and their ties to poverty are just one of them.
Yerameyahu wrote:
I think your example is flawed (mixes sexual orientation and sex), but okay. Regardless of sex, homosexuality is currently understood to be innate. It's in the general category of religion, race, etc., that I described earlier. However, the Steel movement is not like that. It's about people who can't afford biomorphs, or choose synths out of solidarity, or *maybe* they just like synths (I think this third group is minor and tangential, though).
I need to point out that, in EP, race, sexual orientation, etc. are just as transmutable as body. Discriminating against these is pretty much identical to discriminating against synths.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I wasn't talking about those things in EP, I was using a real-world example. Sorry about that. :) I wouldn't call sexual orientation transmutable, it'd required actual brainwashing (Psychosurgery). But I'm no expert, so we can ignore that if it's not agreed. Your example's still worse. ;) I would argue that the synth demonizing is the *effect* here, not the cause. They don't like the poor, *so then* they started calling them disgusting or evil. I'm specifically talking about Luna and the Steel movement, not 'people don't like synths' in general. For it to be a systematic, organized movement, it's got to be more than just a matter of *taste*. Again, it's as if the kind of people who could afford biomorphs were oppressing people who couldn't afford name-brand clothing; they might be disgusted by knockoffs, but that's not *why* they're doing it, and it's not a good focus of a solidarity counter-movement. Do you see where my confusion still lies?
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Very deep, Green Slime. That would help explain the irrational lash-back (although doesn't help justify the choice to players). I too would prefer being a human, but that's probably because no one has seriously made a case about why it would be FUN to be a synthmorph.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
I too would prefer being a human, but that's probably because no one has seriously made a case about why it would be FUN to be a synthmorph.
Well, as arguments go, "Plug-n-Play" just doesn't quite cut it anymore...
InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Very deep, Green Slime. That would help explain the irrational lash-back (although doesn't help justify the choice to players). I too would prefer being a human, but that's probably because no one has seriously made a case about why it would be FUN to be a synthmorph.
Silly meatbags... Synths likely have a whole different set of "feelings" and ideas about pleasure. like resleeving into a car... the feel of the engine, the vibrations of the road, kinda like feeling the wind in your hair... Sleeve into a Reaper just to feel your ducted fans kick in.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
InsidiousAlgorythm wrote:
like resleeving into a car... the feel of the engine, the vibrations of the road, kinda like feeling the wind in your hair...
Pfft. I can feel that anytime I ride a motorcycle. ;)
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
InsidiousAlgorythm wrote:
Synths likely have a whole different set of "feelings" and ideas about pleasure. like resleeving into a car... the feel of the engine, the vibrations of the road, kinda like feeling the wind in your hair... Sleeve into a Reaper just to feel your ducted fans kick in.
I wonder why a synth would be capable of feeling 'pleasure' at all. What would the purpose be? Pleasure in humans isn't an accident; it was built in to push us into participating in activities (such as reproduction) that we might not otherwise engage in. But there's no real requirement of that for synthmorphs. No one is going to start a million-dollar research project to make your Ford feel pleasure. Similarly, there's not much economic incentive (prior to, well, right now) to enable pleasure for the millions of desperate infugees, indentured servants, and heavy manufacturing workers using synthmorphs. The number of people who would pay extra for a synthmorph that feels pleasure is really quite low. For some people this might be considered an advantage. All the easier to spend two hundred hours straight working on your theory of sixth-dimensional folded space without the distractions of sleep, bacon or sex.
Dimuscul Dimuscul's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Quote:
Pfft. I can feel that anytime I ride a motorcycle.
You ride the motorcycle, but you are not the motorcycle. It's not the same.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
You're right. The motorcycle doesn't get the thrill of feeling the asphalt inches away from its skin when it makes a sharp turn, or the pounding of its heartbeat as the world around it turns into a multicolored blur. To speak nothing of having 500 horsepower worth of thrust between your legs. Yeah, I think I'm happy with my position in this ride.
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Besides, for most of the clanking masses, there's probably nothing terribly exciting about sleeving into a cheap case.
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Demonseed Elite wrote:
Besides, for most of the clanking masses, there's probably nothing terribly exciting about sleeving into a cheap case.
Of course not, it's a CHEAP case, not a fully decked out Synthmorph. Y'all are forgetting that "Synths" are still human, just because you inhabit a morph that isn't flesh doesn't mean you don't feel things, it just depends on the morph you are in. Like the pain filter, these feelings can be turned off or on.
InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Lilith wrote:
InsidiousAlgorythm wrote:
like resleeving into a car... the feel of the engine, the vibrations of the road, kinda like feeling the wind in your hair...
Pfft. I can feel that anytime I ride a motorcycle. ;)
Which is why I said KINDA like...
Shards Shards's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I've viewed the Synthmorph more along the lines of a prosthetic or even an bio-aid (like glasses). In the EP time line, a highly functional prosthetic, but a prosthetic none the less. I've worn glasses most of my life, I barely even realize that I have them on, ......most of the time. But if my face get's sweaty, the glasses start slipping. If I bend over too quickly, the glasses can fly off my face. If I don't pay attention to my glasses, they get dirty and their effectiveness is reduced. And there are more of these little issues. After 20+ years of wearing glasses, my vision is fine. But dammed if I still don't wish that I had regular working eyes. Point being, glasses give me vision as good or better as anyone else, but it's the rest of these little things that make them "just a bit off" or less than perfect. Not exactly a deal breaker, but still enough to make me consider spending $4k+ for Lasic. That is how I equate why Synthmorphs would be thought of as "lesser" for some reason. They are perfectly functional, but slightly "off" in how they feel. Enough so that they are thought of as inferior to a good biomorph. This could be further exacerbated by the lack real (for the lack of a better term) biofeedback. What I mean as "biofeedback" is the constant, almost subconscious, awareness of our biomorph and it's background noise. On a fundamental level, it would be very wrong to not be able to hear/feel your heartbeat. Further down the "noise" scale, would be our own nervous system. You have our autonomic functions that take up some of the processing power of the brain and then the active actions. Maybe in a Synthmorph, these sub-functions are handled by sub-processors instead of the brain? So, you want to flip some guy the bird. In the Biomorph the brain would regulate everything from how far you extend your finger, down to if you sneer at this guy at the same time, which generates a fair amount of processor (brain) usage as well as bandwidth (nervous system). In a Synthmorph, all your brain has to do is activate the "Bird_Fipper_Proc01" function and now has nothing to do but wait.
______________________________________________ Any comment resembling wisdom either direct or implied was just an accident.....nothing to see here.....move along....
Dimuscul Dimuscul's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Quote:
You're right. The motorcycle doesn't get the thrill of feeling the asphalt inches away from its skin when it makes a sharp turn, or the pounding of its heartbeat as the world around it turns into a multicolored blur.
You are getting limited by human trappings. We are not talking about a cheap version of a motorcycle with essential controls ... if habitats have thousand of sensors, if technology have evolved to the point where muses, egos, ectos, AR realities, etc, are everywhere ... What make you think that cycle doesn't have sensors, which are connected to the brain and converted to sensations, emotions, feelings. Then, you don't have a 500 horsepower worth of thrust between your legs. You are that beast. You feel that power because it's you ... you feel the road with your proximity sensors like fingers caressing the asphalt, the weather and aerodynamic sensors feel the wind and rain like naked skin, when power gets dry you feel hungry, when your motor roar it's like shouting with all you soul ... free ... at 300 km/h near 10 cm from pavement. If synths couldn't have emotions linked to it's bodies ... they wouldn't love, cry, desire, rage, revolt, fear ....
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
The implication you give is that this is somehow [i]better[/i] than the "human" experience. I respectfully disagree. It is [i]different[/i] than the human experience, in the way that hard data is different from raw experience. That alone, however, does not make it [i]better[/i]. The way you describe it, it's really nothing more than an alternative. And considering how much I love my current setup, it's an alternative I have no interest in.
Dimuscul Dimuscul's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
It could be better ... for a specific experience. What I'm trying to show is the reason for some people to prefer the Synth way of live.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
A different experience, certainly. A human one? Perhaps not.
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Again, I have difficulty believing someone has spent the time figuring out how to ramp up the pleasure senses for a synthmorph to the point that it can equal or exceed those of a biomorph (or infomorph). Biomorphs have been the subjects of study for, literally, thousands of years. Synthmorphs? Maybe 50. Biomorphs have sex (lots of dirty, dirty sex). They have money. They need medical assistance. Synthmorphs dig holes in the ground and get cleaned in a barrel of oil and nanomachines. Yes, I'm sure someone can design synthmorphs which are as sensitive as a biomorph, and those synthmorphs would certainly be an 'alternative'. But the question is 'why'? Who is going to say 'wow, I'm going to invent a hugely expensive machine to let people FEEL', when they can already do that basically for free by slipping into an infomorph for a bit? The motorcycle example doesn't really hold. If I can sleeve into a motorcycle that also means I can puppetsock it, and get all the same sensations while still having a biomorph so I can enjoy the wind in my hair. I fully expect that Shadowrun riggers still exist, with everything that comes with.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
You have trouble believing that people have had a technology for decades and they've not tried experimenting, perhaps dangerously, with it? Especially when they have the ability to reload from a back-up if they fry their brain? You have trouble believing that, in a setting where there are places with an eight-hour work-week and all products are available for free, people haven't spent inordinate amounts of time trying to figure out how to create synthetic versions of the most mind-blowing orgasms? What bizarre humans have you spoken to?
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Just because one idiot out there is willing to waste time and resources on a frivolous endeavor does not automatically mean the technology is commonplace, practical, or even desired. I'd be more inclined to see it as another indulgence of the idle rich, more than anything else in that regard.
Tango Tango's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
The advantage with a bio morph i think is the ability to look one in the eye and actually see something in there (presense or a soul, whatever) whereas with a synth, its just a cold lense staring back and maybe a light flashing when it speaks. Maslow's hierarchy list's self expression & societal interaction as rather basic human needs, just above safe environment & food. It's obvious that a standard synth lacks many of the more subtle communicational tools bio morphs take for granted (facial expressions, more fluid body language), and if i was a synth, this would frustrate me to no end. Without these extra channels of communication, i would have to spell out everything exactly how i meant it without smirks, looks or winks to indicate sarcasm, irony or whatever other context changing expression. To communicate like this is to take away a part of your personality you might want others to see; not only you look just like a million other synth's of the same model, you might be relatively boring to talk to, too. Not a fun position to be in as a social animal. I'd imagine the only remedy for most of the synth population is the mesh where they can be who ever they want, and if it is so, i can see how a standard lowly synth worker's day would pan out: He would see the work as a necessary evil for continued existense, but when his shift was over, he would retire to his mainteance pod and just dive in the mesh for his daily dosage of social interaction. Mesh would be his "real" world where everything important happens and the real world would become just an unpleasant but nessessary, temporal experiense.
- "Mom's chicken soup, maybe?"
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
You have trouble believing that people have had a technology for decades and they've not tried experimenting, perhaps dangerously, with it?
Not at all. But just like we have people who are experimenting with flying cars, it's basically restricted to a few crazies in their garages. Even with 'inordinate time', they can't compete with two thousand years of dedicated (and financially supported research) by millions of professional researchers. For every guy in his simulspace environment working with models of the cyberbrain, there's a hundred working across the solar system, in simulspace and with real subjects, modifying the biomorph brain.
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Not at all. But just like we have people who are experimenting with flying cars, it's basically restricted to a few crazies in their garages. Even with 'inordinate time', they can't compete with two thousand years of dedicated (and financially supported research) by millions of professional researchers. For every guy in his simulspace environment working with models of the cyberbrain, there's a hundred working across the solar system, in simulspace and with real subjects, modifying the biomorph brain.
The thing is, it's not a few crazies in garages here. We're talking about huge industries, here. People in synthmorphs make up a substantial part of the system, and the best ones will be bought. More to the point, places like Titan have a substantial amount of synths amongst their citizenry. That is a LOT of people who will want equal or better sensoriums to biomorphs. You're talking a lot of people doing a lot of work with far less unstable and more easily produced materials than are used in biomorph experimentation.
Tango wrote:
-Post-
The thing is, synths can get something called a synthetic mask, or an active nanite swarm over their face, or project a face in AR. It's no doubt a little creepy to look at (at least in the latter case, and perhaps a little Uncanny Valley-ish in the second one), but it provides them with their need. I understand that it'd be frustrating, though, of course, but there are options.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I think you also have to remember that EP magi-science has already solved this problem. Full XP and the ability to perfectly reduce a human ego to a digital form means they've already got *perfect* simulated senses. Angst, love, hunger, itching, everything.
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Yerameyahu wrote:
I think you also have to remember that EP magi-science has already solved this problem. Full XP and the ability to perfectly reduce a human ego to a digital form means they've already got *perfect* simulated senses. Angst, love, hunger, itching, everything.
True, it can be done, but it doesn't mean it is being done in all situations. There's still the fact that a large portion of the synthetic population is sleeved in buggy, lousy, cheaply-made cases, whether they wanted to be sleeved in them or not. For them, the experience of synthetic life is not a perfect simulation of the biological experience. But it's what they have to deal with. Further, the durability of their synthetic life means that society takes shortcuts in supporting them. Cases don't need life support, so why supply them with it? Instead, house them in the section of the habitat that isn't heated to a comfortable temperature. Sure, maybe a synthetic can perfectly reproduce the sensation of temperature, but when you're living someplace with no heat, do you really want to? It's safer to turn that sensation off; but you're cutting out a portion of your sensorium that biologicals take for granted.
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I do agree. In *practice*, it's one thing; but it looked like others were addressing the mere possibility. Still, you can simply set your temp sensors to be 'comfortable' at a different point. You can pretend anything: random itches and the sensation of scratching them, periodic hunger and the taste of (admittedly illusionary) food, stretching muscles, etc. This is all cheap software, if it doesn't *already* exist in the ego anyway.
Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Yerameyahu wrote:
I do agree. In *practice*, it's one thing; but it looked like others were addressing the mere possibility. Still, you can simply set your temp sensors to be 'comfortable' at a different point. You can pretend anything: random itches and the sensation of scratching them, periodic hunger and the taste of (admittedly illusionary) food, stretching muscles, etc.
Yeah, though I think there's some uniquely human distaste for the idea of "faking it." Many people in synthetic sleeves probably have a feeling of shame about their illusory, imitated senses. Beyond that, many biomorphs probably look down on synthetics for being poseurs who don't actually have the biological experience but try to mimic it anyway.
"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Yup, there's certainly that. People are complicated, so I'm sure there are those who never think about the simulated human-ness of 'the little things', while others obsess. :)
mack2028 mack2028's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I think you are all missing something integral. Humans don't want to be synths for the same reason you don't want to be a dog because you are not a dog. You can rationalize it either way (dogs are better because look at how happy they are OR it would suck to be a dog, they don't have thumbs) but in the end you are not a dog and probably don't want to be. AGIs don't mind being synths and uplifts don't mind being uplifts but despite how cool it would be to sleeve into a bear most people don't do it because they don't want to because they are not a bear. Be who you are, you will be much happier that way.
mack2028 mack2028's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
Oh and one more thing. I and many others I assume don't feel human and if i had a choice I would stop. Any other choice especially one that varied drastically from humanity like an arachnoid or reaper would make me immensely happy.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
My own take on the presence of biomorphs is that it really is costly social status signalling. Biomorphs are expensive - they cannot be made quickly and they require a whole lot of resources to maintain (from food to a habitat with the right kind of air). They likely cannot easily be made cheap, unlike synthmorphs. This means that having a biomorph signals an element of social status that cannot easily be mimicked: a poor or unconnected person will not be able to get the biomorph. This, in turn, makes having a biomorph a costly but hard to forge signal of social status. Given what we know of human status hierarchies and unconscious behavior, this gives a pretty strong motivation to have biomorphs. Of course, most people do not think 'I want to show off, so I will get a horrendously expensive biomorph'. They will come up with plenty of rationalisations - everything from the pleasures of the flesh and nostalgia for their birth body to adaptability and spiritual excuses. But deep down they are like high-heeled shoes. In a post-scarcity society this kind of social signalling is extra important. You can't show off your wealth by wearing heavy gold chains (gold is a fairly cheap material in most places and can be nanoforged into whatever you want) or having a magnificent hairstyle (your open source AI hairdresser can make it instantly). But getting something that is inherently expensive and tricky to maintain shows that you have real wealth. Other ways of showing wealth is of course to do costly training that shows off the amount of time, willpower and character you can spend (think current gym/dieting habits; in EP the counterpart might be really expert knowledge or working up a sparkling unaided personality). There will always be plenty of people not buying into this social signalling stuff. They are the same people who wear sensible shoes, eat the food they like instead of healthy fairtrade organic stuff, do not dress up or try to follow the media the mainstream cares about. But they also tend to be excluded from the high end of the status hierarchies unless they can break in using some trick like getting very wealthy (and even then they will be widely disparaged by high and low, since they do not follow the proper norms). They can be found everywhere, but the dominant culture is dominated by the majority of people - and they think (consciously or not) that the status games are important. Hence high status for biomorphs, and looking down on synthmorphs. People who try to take pride in their excellent artificial bodies are usually merely trying to establish a different status hierarchy. Personally, I would prefer to be an infomorph and rent bodies or actuators whenever I want to interact with base reality.
Extropian
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
I don't doubt there are a number of unconscious cues, social and otherwise, that might affect such decisions. I don't think it's likely, however, that one in particular dominates over all. A person could still be "sensible" and still prefer a meat body. Personally, I can't stand high-heels for what they do to a person's toes, even if they look damn sexy.
xPeregrine xPeregrine's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
@ nezumi.hebereke Beyond the -whether people would or would not attempt to develop pleasure- argument, I think you make an excellent point. Now I'm talking about real economic circumstances, not a bunch of hippies on Titan who want equal rights for everyone. (I'm teasing about that -- I do think there would be people who would want to work on synth pleasure) But in terms of the primary market for synth morphs - Why would an employer who offers sweat shop conditions (ie: most efficient policy) to employees want to invest in synths which experience pleasure? Pleasure is a luxury. You can keep your employees "content" and efficient with software & necessary upgrades and maintenance (alongside other possible rewards). -- And that includes masking the need to feel if it gets in the way of productivity. It does serve to underscore the difference in thought paradigms which may exist between the upper and working classes. The working class would begin to develop within their own isolated niche and possibly create a very different societal mindset.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Synths Vs. Biomorphs. Why???
My point was merely that there's no 'investment' in pleasure/sensations. It's cheap software that the ego is already wired for, *and* it can be spoofed; you don't have to maintain your sweatshop at 75°F. I guess it depends on how dystopian your view is.

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