Axel the Chimeric wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:

If you're thinking that a "flat" is a morph who has no genetic modifications, no cyberware and no bioware I'm going to argue that they don't exist. Where would they have come from? Where do they live in AF10?

Jovian Republic, outer system, exoplanets. Those are the top three answers for these. Neo-Luddites probably find garden worlds and go off to live their merry lives happily, then die shortly thereafter in a myriad of horrible ways.

Do you really think that luddites are common? I just can't see it. I'd have to say that luddites are less common than any single Uplift breed. I'm sure that the Jovians don't qualify as luddites. They have muses and cyberware, cortical stacks, robots, ego casting. The only restriction for Jovians that I'm aware of is General AI and most nanotech. I'm certain that they have basic biomods. And that's my point. Just because a Flat morph doesn't automatically come with Mesh Inserts and Basic Biomods doesn't mean that most people who were born with flats havn't upgraded.

Axel the Chimeric wrote:

OneTrikPony wrote:

I'm sure there are some cult clades of assbackward freaks who refuse to use the mesh or a muse and live short brutal lives as "natural" humans in space. Like there are some people who refuse modern medicine, television and the Web today. Those people don't matter because they're rare, ignorant, and handy capped. I'm not sure how they could figure prominantly in any campaign.

I can think of a number of ways. Personally, one of the fun things I like to do is experiment with the idea of transhumanity if there wasn't a Fall (typically, the end result is somewhere between Transmetropolitan and Ghost in the Shell; transhumanism with a flavour of cyberpunk), and those have far more situations for "natural" humans; people who riot against various levels of modification.

I'm pretty sure that humanity was more advanced before the fall then it is in AF10. There are some allusions to this in the core book; the first off the top of my head is "people's history of an unfortunate universe", the discussion of the strife between Starware and Omnicore, The mentions of advanced tech still lost on Earth, and the fact that we had one singularity event even before we had the TITAN's Hard takeoff. As I see it, unless you're going back to around 20BF people were fairly even or better off than they are in 10AF. The only reason NOT to use a Muse in the last 40 year is because you're a silly religious [edit]person[/edit].

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Keep in mind, though, that what you're saying now could be a very fun hook for role reversal. Remember that, even in AF 10, there are lots of forms of modification and life considered odd. All biochauvinists and anti-synth people are exactly the kind of people you describe, and they're quite common. More to the point, though, and to talk of that role reversal, there's posthumans who are VERY out there, who would use the exact same argument, even if the changes they offer are repellent to transhumanity as a whole.

I agree that there's a broad spectrum of how humanity has embraced technology ranging from; ExHumans, to Ultimates, to Mercurials, to Transhumans, to Bio[u]conservatives[/u]. But there is an important distinction between Bio[u]chauvanists[/u] and Bio[u]conservatives[/u]. Exhumans and Ultimates might be biocheuvanist, (against Mercurial life forms) but they certainly can't be bioconservative (Against modification of the basic human form and alternative forms of life). How ever, I don't think that Bioconservatives are necessarily the same as Neoluddites, (against modern medicine and mesh/muse use).

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I suggested a while back a posthuman instrument created from several fused bodies and containing several egos. There's a thing in Gatecrashers that describes something similar. These self-proclaimed enlightened beings might consider that entirely acceptable and even rational. Their attitudes would be very similar to the one you just displayed here.

I think the Ultimates are a better example of one Faction looking down it's collective nose at another faction than the Hivemind guys. Reading the account of the Eris Gate from the perspective of the Ultimate who 'wrote' it is fairly chilling. In the short term (and possibly in the long term) the radical experimentors like the Exhumans and Hiveminds and even Synthlife proponents are just as irrelevant and almost as unimportant as the Neoluddites. I say they're irrelevant because they're too rare to have any real effect on society. I say they're *almost* as un important because prematurely embracing an un-vetted technology or philosophy is even more dangerous than rejecting a tried and true and demonstrably beneficial technology ala` the Muse. Of course all of these extremes DO exist in the setting and are compelling tools for a GM to play with for an adventure or several. But when I suggest that they wouldn't figgure prominently in a campaign I mean that they're not an issue on the scale of Venusian Independence for example. And they're not common enough in the setting to make a house rule like; "People with out Muses get -10 to all mesh activities." a mechanic that would effect the setting in anyway.

Thats true. I do use the term luddite narrowly to mean a person who shuns technology. The word is more useful to me with a precise definition. I still can't see the incidence of people who don't use a Muse being any greater than something like one in a million and those congregated in habitats that allow them to more easily survive and socialize together. That would make the incidence of a person who doesn't use a muse a very rare occurrance everywhere else. Of course that's just my take on the setting. I base that on being unable to imagine how those people manage to survive and partly that I'm not really interested in playing or telling that story. I don't disagree that it's a compelling, if untenable, story. :)

I can't help feeling that there is some *real* reason that most people in EP prefer Biomorphs. I'm going to start a new thread about it.

Yeah, I'm talking general Apts and everything, social, various skills. I don't see EP as a combat game, really. By the numbers, biomorphs are 'worth' a lot more CP at chargen. Given infinite cash/Rez, that's another story. Personally, I'm miffed that the best humanoid morph is the Liquid Steel. The liquid trick is great, but what if I want the improved stats, but the synthetic skin instead? :)

It's not the same. It's the upgraded version: an extra +5 Apt, Skinflex, Wrist Tools, and the liquid Shape Adjusting. Yes, not much of a difference, but I'll take +5 Apt all day long. :) If you think 5CP for +5 Apt is fair, sign me up for 10 of those! I don't want pure combat power. At all. That's what robots are for, anyway. And I'm not saying I prefer biomorphs. I'm saying they're better, as in 'the options in the book are better'. Obviously, all of humanity should switch to synths, or at least some kind of super-pod; faster, better, stronger, cheaper. That's why the setting of EP does everything it can to stop that, including giving us crappy synth options with crappy Apts.