Muses, Copies, Hacking

Mon, 2011-04-04 09:17

#2

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

First of all, you'd need to prepare for this. Remember, mesh inserts can only hold one AI at a time. Anyone who plans on doing this is carrying around an ecto or two for this sort of fight. Secondly, it's entirely possible, nay, probable, that focused hackers have assistance from AIs when prepared whenever they engage in an attack. However, do you have to assume that everyone does this? No. Hackers who are prepared and making a concentrated attack will do it, but they've got time to prepare. Everyone else will just be taken by surprise. Frankly, though, it's an absolute wonder why, when it realizes its system is hacked, a security AI doesn't duplicate itself about a dozen times and have them all try to hack the hacker in groups of three; each performing a different task. If you wanted, you could rule that forks of AIs, given their lack of creativity and free will, aren't very good at assisting in a digital task, though. This would mean that, while an individual muse does provide a bonus, forking it isn't going to make it any more effective at assisting in the hack. That would mean a given hacker would need three individual AIs to assist on hacking; not a huge obstacle but it makes it slightly more difficult.

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[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]

Mon, 2011-04-04 10:23

#3

Dimuscul

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Forks aren't a "problem". Merging forks is stressful ... so player's have to think twice to go freely duplicating his Ego. And if you plan on erasing them, you can get a fork mutiny sooner than you expect. But Muses? I could copy them and store them on slaved ectos so they help me on almost every skill check I could imagine. Need an academic skill check? Profession? interest? research? Even a freerunning skill check to escape from a group of thugs ... with muses calculating the optimal escape route, unstable structures, evaluating your physical state and comparing it to pursuers to establish choke points from where to escape. Etc etc. Muses don't need to be merged and don't try to get independent. It seems like the assist rule, as written, is quite problematic ... no? Maybe if assisting required a skill check with a chance of a MoF 30 provoking a -10 check, would be a way to stop senseless assisting. You could still have specialized muses but it wouldn't be that no brainer to have.

Mon, 2011-04-04 10:29

#4

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

The answer is yes. If you search around the forums, you'll find that the '+30 to everything' is the first trick suggested. :) Many people only allow assistance from muses if they have the relevant skill, or in 'reasonable situations', or whatever other balancing rule you need if the players are messing with the game.

Mon, 2011-04-04 14:09

#5

Treebore

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

IF people think this is too "breakable", and I agree it is, just rule in order to aid someone the aid must be of "comparable" skill. So if the PC has the skill at 60 then to gain meaningful assistance anyone/thing aiding the PC must also have the skill at 50 or higher. So a Muse, which I remember as typically being skills of 40, could only help PC's with a skill of 50 or lower. Certain Muses have even higher, depending on what their focus is. IF requiring it to be within 10 points is too stringent, a given GM can feel free to loosen that up however much they think it should be. Another thing you can do if your finding aiding being too broken too often, is limit the aid an individual can give as a +10 bonus, maxing out at +30 from 3 separate entities. Which is by the rules anyways. Plus remember this only modifies the skill value, not the roll made. So no matter what it can only max a skill's value out before the given roll. So no matter how many muses, etc... you have assisting you can only max a skill out at 100. Then roll. Thats assuming someone has the skill at a minimum of 40 to begin with, because you can never give a modifier of more than +/- 60 for any given situation. Plus the rules only talk about CHARACTERS being able to assist on rolls, not muses or other ego's. So a GM can rule that a Muses or other AI's knowledge is too general and basic to be of assistance. Which may be the rules default assumption anyways since they only mention characters being able to assist on page 115.

Mon, 2011-04-04 14:29

#6

Godofgallows Godofgallows's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Greetings everyone, I am about to start an EP campaign. I'm a bit stuck with two problems thought: 1. One of my players wishing to play an AGI infomorph came up with an a interesting idea. He wished to play a criminal AGI who specialised in biomorph theft - breaking into backup resleeving clinics and stealing valuable biological sleeves in the following way: he would infiltrate the system of the clinic, hack the data transfer of an ego bridge and use it to print the personality of himself, the AGI into the brain of the biomorph instead of the one stored in the cortical stack. At the same time he would receive the data tranferred from the ego bridge and thus absorb enough memories from the cortical stack to impersonate the individual long enough to walk out of the facility in his guise. The backup cortical stack would remain unharmed, but - for some time at least - the transfer would be deemed successful. 2. Another one: can an infomorph have AI-s or assault software like scorchers, or narcoalgorithms stored for later use? Can they be part of its code as, like subroutines?

Mon, 2011-04-04 14:32

#7

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I think the body-stealing gimmick would get old fast, but maybe it's a fun backstory. It does assume they chose to basically ignore hacker security for their incredibly-expensive and vulnerable business, but that's just plot. ;) As for 'subroutines', the short answer is 'no', but you can do whatever is fun for your campaign.

Mon, 2011-04-04 14:59

#8

Treebore

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Godofgallows wrote:
Greetings everyone, I am about to start an EP campaign. I'm a bit stuck with two problems thought: 1. One of my players wishing to play an AGI infomorph came up with an a interesting idea. He wished to play a criminal AGI who specialised in biomorph theft - breaking into backup resleeving clinics and stealing valuable biological sleeves in the following way: he would infiltrate the system of the clinic, hack the data transfer of an ego bridge and use it to print the personality of himself, the AGI into the brain of the biomorph instead of the one stored in the cortical stack. At the same time he would receive the data tranferred from the ego bridge and thus absorb enough memories from the cortical stack to impersonate the individual long enough to walk out of the facility in his guise. The backup cortical stack would remain unharmed, but - for some time at least - the transfer would be deemed successful. 2. Another one: can an infomorph have AI-s or assault software like scorchers, or narcoalgorithms stored for later use? Can they be part of its code as, like subroutines?

Nice idea, but impossible to do. Reasons why such a theft cannot be done, at least by an infomorph. 1. The Ego Bridge would not be wired into the general mesh. It would be isolated simply because you would want a "pure" line of transfer, with no possibility of cross contamination. Similar to why surgeries are performed in "sterile" environments. So the Ego Bridge will be impossible to hack from a Mesh, since they are physically isolated from each other. 2. The idea of stealing their memories is first, not possible, but even if you allowed it, would likely lead to massive insanity. Such an integration of memories would require a skilled Psychosurgeon. Psycho Surgeons cannot operate on themselves. So your player would at the very least need outside help from a skill psycho surgeon. Again, if you even allowed them to do this. Such surgeries are done under extremely controlled conditions much like real surgeries. To do them "on the fly" while performing a hack is inviting massive insanity, if you even allow such a thing in the first place. So I suggest you read, and reread, the rules on resleeving, and I think even more obstacles will become apparent as to why doing such a thing, even if it was possible, would be highly, highly dangerous.

Mon, 2011-04-04 15:06

#9

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Godofgallows wrote:
He wished to play a criminal AGI who specialised in biomorph theft - breaking into backup resleeving clinics and stealing valuable biological sleeves in the following way:

I could see this working for a mission or two, with the support of a team. I couldn't see it as being a profession or recurring source of income. I can think of half a dozen security controls which would reasonably stop someone like this, and for which I do not have a brilliant solution.

Quote:
2. Another one: can an infomorph have AI-s or assault software like scorchers, or narcoalgorithms stored for later use? Can they be part of its code as, like subroutines?

Yes, infomorphs can have software as 'possessions'. I don't think it would be stored in the infomorphs 'code' per se, but it would be in the library that accompanies them when they egocast somewhere.

Mon, 2011-04-04 15:12

#10

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Would it? I mean, they could email themselves their stuff, but I mean literally part of the egocast?

Tue, 2011-04-05 01:40

#11

Abhoth

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Yerameyahu wrote:
Would it? I mean, they could email themselves their stuff, but I mean literally part of the egocast?

Why not? its all just code and it would be trivially small compared to the size of the ego. A virtual "pocket of programs" attached to your ego, seems perfectly reasonble given the tech level of the game.

Tue, 2011-04-05 09:40

#12

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Abhoth wrote:
Yerameyahu wrote:
Would it? I mean, they could email themselves their stuff, but I mean literally part of the egocast?
Why not? its all just code and it would be trivially small compared to the size of the ego. A virtual "pocket of programs" attached to your ego, seems perfectly reasonable given the tech level of the game.

I'd say no to this as well, in my game at least, yeah they could transfer a packet of software via the mesh, but I'd say, like the Sterile Environment example above, the data in an ego cast would be nothing except the Ego, anything else would be considered corrupted data or even possibly an exsurgent variant and wiped.

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Tue, 2011-04-05 09:51

#13

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Abhoth: No, I'm not talking 'why not' or 'reasonably'. You're clearly right, there. :) I'm just asking, 'do the rules support that?' Or is egocasting ego-only?

Tue, 2011-04-05 10:11

#14

Abhoth

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Yerameyahu wrote:
Abhoth: No, I'm not talking 'why not' or 'reasonably'. You're clearly right, there. :) I'm just asking, 'do the rules support that?' Or is egocasting ego-only?

Sorry >< I blame my lack of engrish due to spending the last 48 hours trying to make synthetic (but organic) kidney's grow in a artificial incubator and not been able to leave the lab, my apologies Yerameyahu. I say you would not have any issues sending the data as in the rules your muse comes along for the ride when you ego cast, if you can take a pet AI with you id have to say any other programs personally taged by you as "safe" and "important" like your muse would as well. That's the best I can remember at the moment without access to mah book.

Tue, 2011-04-05 16:24

#15

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Cool. I didn't realize the muse(s ) and things came along. Obviously, data *should* come with you, without a great counter-argument (super-security, whatever).

Tue, 2011-04-05 18:58

#16

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I assume that muses are part of the Egocast in my games. Losing a muse can be very traumatic, My character would pay for QE transfer of his muse skillsofts and lifelog even if it weren't bundled with his ego. I friken HATE it when they loose my luggage. Also, the only difference between an Ego Cast and any other Quantum Farcast is the data in the freight. AFAIK Right now we're playing an adventure I wrote where contraban is actually hidden inside the ego of an NPC, a blueprint for advanced nanotech is recorded right in her synapses that would have been used for long term memory ala` Johny Mnemonic. As to Muses and Teamwork Tests; We've decided that the muse's assistance is allready figgured in on in all Infosec, Interfacing, Programming and Research Tests. Thus a muse can only offer some type of bonus through a Complimentary skill. That makes sense to our group because, when you think about it, it would be really strange if a character *Didn't* use his muse for assistance in those tests. That's what a muse is for.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Tue, 2011-04-05 21:45

#17

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

for hacking assistance, there is a special brand of AI that is being sold on the black/red market: KAOS.

in EP cb page 332, they wrote:
Kaos AI: Kaos AIs are used by hackers and covert ops teams to create distractions and sabotage systems. REF 20. Skills: Hardware: Electronics 40, Infosec 40, Interface 40, Professional: Security System 80, Programming 40, Research 20, Perception 30 plus one weapon skill at 40. [Expensive]

Also, what can be done is to sleeve Delta Forks in, say, ten cyberbrains linked with an 11th fork, a Beta or even an Alpha, in a central cyberbrain. while it's quite costy, it has many advantages. each fork that isn't aiding in then task can keep an eye on the others or their target, acting as mobile spimes, and relating pertinent intel, like security movement. idea configuration is 6 individuals aiding the alpha, wile 4 keep guard. the Alpha, the 11th individual does the hacking it provides two things: plausible deniability (how could i have been hacking that place in Octavia, when i was in Chat Noir, waiting for my turn to get through the Fissure Gate?) and protection if there is a risk of Xurgent infection during the hack. to prevent this group to go awol or rogue, I strongly suggest to prune the alpha fork and have a psychosurgeon implant undying loyalty compulsion in his/her/their mind

—

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Tue, 2011-04-05 21:53

#18

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Jesus Christ, my eyes hurt just trying to read that.

Wed, 2011-04-06 05:22

#19

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

what part exactly hurt your eyes? go me, anyway! I managed to create, somehow, a textual Basilisk Hack!

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Wed, 2011-04-06 06:41

#20

Dramatic Exit Dramatic Exit's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Yerameyahu wrote:
Cool. I didn't realize the muse(s ) and things came along. Obviously, data *should* come with you, without a great counter-argument (super-security, whatever).

I had the same question. I suspected that the muse came along, but wasn't sure on 'Software'. It lead to the question of the difference in storing digital 'memories' and 'software code'. If Software does come along, then what about, say, Blueprints, or the user's entire video/music database, or his previous lifelog? Instead of egocasting being 'ego+muse' should it be 'ego+everything digital'? This has a few implications for the Continuity adventure - which I'm opening with.

Wed, 2011-04-06 07:42

#21

Tachi

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I think it's the ego and everything stored in the mesh inserts; muse, files, everything.

—

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Wed, 2011-04-06 08:03

#22

Abhoth

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Tachi wrote:
I think it's the ego and everything stored in the mesh inserts; muse, files, everything.

remember you can store the complete sum of your life experienes in your mesh inserts and a fair chunk of the sum of human knowledge as well 0-0.

Wed, 2011-04-06 08:26

#23

Dramatic Exit Dramatic Exit's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Abhoth wrote:
Tachi wrote:
I think it's the ego and everything stored in the mesh inserts; muse, files, everything.
remember you can store the complete sum of your life experienes in your mesh inserts and a fair chunk of the sum of human knowledge as well 0-0.

That's pretty much it. If someone has stored every bit of info they ever came across, is it really getting transferred in an egocast? If not, where do you draw the line?

Wed, 2011-04-06 08:27

#24

Tachi

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I can't find anything in the book on this, though that doesn't mean it's not there. But, I think of it like this; how much space to store a muse and files, versus the amount of space to store an [i]entire human mind?[/i] Just a thought.

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I don't shoot a man for being incompetent in the Devil's work. I shoot him for being c

Wed, 2011-04-06 09:11

#25

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

It depends on what 'files' means. Don't forget that XP exists, so you can have the equivalent of years of fully sensory records (of anything). The rules are silent. :)

Wed, 2011-04-06 09:12

#26

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Considering how often the point is brought up that storage space is essentially a non-issue at the point in time of the setting, I'm with Tachi on this one.

Wed, 2011-04-06 09:32

#27

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I agree. However, *bandwidth* is frequently an issue, with certain systems (qubits, mostly). So it does depend.

Wed, 2011-04-06 09:33

#28

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Yeah, so after thinking about it, I fully agree that the muse is transferred with the ego (My above statement forgot to include that) as well as any ego modifications. I'm still on fence about software/data transfer. Lil, the issue here isn't storage, it's bandwidth. Sure we can store the info without much hassle but piping 200 petaflops from Titan to Luna is going to hit the wallet pretty hard. Going with the "Keep the PCs poor" philosophy, I might go so far as to say it's possible to cast non-ego based data packages and applications/software with [Moderate] expense, more if the data needs higher security. I don't think it would be part of the ego cast, but a totally separate package that arrives with the ego, which would work for your intents.

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Wed, 2011-04-06 10:16

#29

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I did consider the facet of bandwidth after I'd made my post, but really, I'm not utterly convinced it would be quite that much of a barrier. The argument for the data in the mesh inserts of the old morph being part of the egocast is convincing to me, though I'll admit to not bothering to consider how that might apply to infomorphs and such. Regardless, I just can't see it as a compelling argument that you get your muse--something integrated with your mesh inserts--but not the other programs and utilities that are stored in the exact same devices. I can understand keeping constraints on what the PCs take with them, but restricting their access to programs they've obtained seems a little too far over the "GM dickery" line for my tastes. At the most, considering the ability of certain resleeving facilities to also facilitate the editing of "data" such as memories, I would find in likely that in places which restrict certain types of programs (hacking and such) that the facilities would naturally disable or remove such programs for security reasons (perhaps even going so far at to make a notice to the local authorities flagging the player as a "person of interest"), but I find it just as likely that other places might not give a flip. It's still a GM call, but I think a blanket "you can't take anything with you" call is a bit too harsh.

Wed, 2011-04-06 13:56

#30

Treebore

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I agree, with how fast resleeving etc... can occur I doubt bandwidth would be an issue.

Wed, 2011-04-06 15:45

#31

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

The only problem is that, as soon as you allow it, someone will come up with an abuse. :) I can't even imagine, but someone will. I was never saying that it should be impossible to farcast anything along with your ego, but merely asking if the rules specified it was possible. I also wasn't aware that your muse went with you, for one thing. It *is* a fact, though, the qubits are described as scarce and valuable, so bandwidth certainly is an issue with that technology, and in some situations. That's mostly the GM's purview, though, because data *sizes* don't really exist. I dunno what it has to do with resleeving speed, though?

Wed, 2011-04-06 17:49

#32

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

When considering whether bandwidth is a factor its important to consider which tech is used for the transmission. There is a difference between Quantum Farcasting and Quantum Entangled Communications. Ego casting is typically not done by QEComs. It's too expensive. Quantum Farcasters: Page 276,

Spoiler: Highlight to view

"Though egocasting occurs at the speed of light, egocasting times vary drastically with distance. Egocasting within a cluster or planetary system is usually just a matter of minutes. Egocasting from the sun to the Kuiper Belt, however, takes between 40 and 70 hours, and so egocasting all of the way across the solar system can take even longer.

Page 314,

Spoiler: Highlight to view

Quantum farcasters are special computers designed to protect a communications channel (such as fiberoptic, radio, laser/microwave, or neutrino) with unbreakable encryption. To function, two or more quantum farcaster computers must first be entangled together (on a quantum level) in the same physical location. The farcasters may then be separated, at which point they may continue to exchange encrypted data via quantum teleportation. This data exchange requires a standard communications link (fiberoptic, radio, laser/microwave, or neutrino), and so is limited by the speed of light, but it is a high bandwidth form of communications.

Quantum Entangled Communications: Page 315:

Spoiler: Highlight to view

Characters can use QE to instantly communicate between any two locations, even if one character is in the solar system and the other has passed through a Pandora gate and is standing on a planet 500 light years away. Each bit of data transmitted between these two QE comms uses up one qubit. High-capacity qubit reservoirs can be used for 100 hours of high-resolution video conferencing or meshbrowsing and 1,000 hours of voice or text only communications. [Expensive]

I'd also question the idea that you can really store "a large portion of human knowledge" in your mesh inserts. EP's Mesh concept carries in it the ideas of distributed computing and memory. The mesh is not *just* a robust communications protocol. It's more probable that a good deal of your files and the memory and processing you use is borrowed from devices in your PAN, your neighbors, and the devices of the station or habitat you're on. Your Muse can keep track of where everything is at and have it ready when you need it.

—

Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Wed, 2011-04-06 19:28

#33

Treebore

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

We have typically used Quantum Farcasters because having to wait the 40, 70, 100+ hours never had an important effect on game play. We have the blue prints for QE Casters, so now that you have pointed out how useful they are even through gates, and we are now Gate Crashing, I think we will be fabbing a unit or three of those.

Wed, 2011-04-06 20:18

#34

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Lilith wrote:
I did consider the facet of bandwidth after I'd made my post, but really, I'm not utterly convinced it would be quite that much of a barrier. The argument for the data in the mesh inserts of the old morph being part of the egocast is convincing to me, though I'll admit to not bothering to consider how that might apply to infomorphs and such. Regardless, I just can't see it as a compelling argument that you get your muse--something integrated with your mesh inserts--but not the other programs and utilities that are stored in the exact same devices.

The Ego/Brain is not a Hard Drive. (There are [i]Homebrew[/i] Mods though, to use a portion of the brain as storage) If that makes me a dick, so be it. Think of Egocasting as "You lose all your shit." No Body, No Guns, No Ectos, No Data, No Nada. If The Marine can't take his guns what makes that more or less fair than The Hacker having to program/buy a new set of softs?

—

Wed, 2011-04-06 20:27

#35

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I wasn't referring to the brain itself as a hard drive. As far as I know, that's not where the muse is stored. I don't agree with that view of egocasting at all, and I've not heard a good argument to convince me otherwise. I agree you can't take everything with you, but if you're just going to make everyone start from square one everytime, then what's the point of even making a unique character, or even bothering with more than a single-session game? And comparing a Marine vs. a Hacker is apples and oranges, and not an apt comparison. There's differences between a Hyperelite Socialite and a Scum Barger, and they're just as unfair. Again, it's part of making different characters: different people have different advantages to offer and different obstacles to overcome. Not everyone has to start on an even playing field.

Wed, 2011-04-06 21:01

#36

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Lilith wrote:
I wasn't referring to the brain itself as a hard drive. As far as I know, that's not where the muse is stored.

The Muse is contained within the mesh inserts. (EP p244) on the Cranial Computer which also serves as the PAN and file storage. (EP p300) EP p275 "Egocasting is transhumanity's most advanced personal transportation technology, though [b]only[/b] the characters ego actually travels. Software is not an integral part of any muse package (page 331)

Lilith wrote:
I agree you can't take everything with you, but if you're just going to make everyone start from square one everytime, then what's the point of even making a unique character, or even bothering with more than a single-session game? And comparing a Marine vs. a Hacker is apples and oranges, and not an apt comparison. There's differences between a Hyperelite Socialite and a Scum Barger, and they're just as unfair. Again, it's part of making different characters: different people have different advantages to offer and different obstacles to overcome.

There are no "classes" here. Guns and Software are possessions, they are items you may have bought, made or stolen, but they are still "things". The Hacker and The Marine are both apples, they are both Egos, they are both Transhumanity. Their specialties come not from possessions, but skill and aptitude. The point being if you are Egocasted you lose it all, until you are re-sleeved and your PAN opens up and connects. I can't see the validity of your argument when it's a moot point anyway, the software will be there when you "Wake up", unless of course there is no Mesh when you get there.

Lilith wrote:
Not everyone has to start on an even playing field.

Until they come up with true teleportation, yes they do.

—

Wed, 2011-04-06 21:08

#37

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Treebore wrote:
We have the blue prints for QE Casters, so now that you have pointed out how useful they are even through gates, and we are now Gate Crashing, I think we will be fabbing a unit or three of those.

How you play it at your table is cool with me but just in case you missed the point and would like that rule to be a part of your game; You can't Fab Qubits. building a QE coms system with a fabber get's you nothing but a big radio that can't connect to anything. You'll have to have Qubits and your GM will have to decide which other QE coms systems your Qbits are Entangled with to determine who you can talk to. Also notice the Bandwidth cap noted on p. 315. "100 hours of high resolution vidio" of a Large Qubit Reservoir. I'm no scientist but I'm not sure it's posible to transmit even a significant fraction of an ego within that bandwidth restriction. If it were possible I'd be really surprise to find that more than one Ego could be transmitted with the capacity of a single Qubit reservoire. Witch makes ego casting between Exo planets logistically moot because it's a one way trip until someone brings you more Qubits.

Quote:
The Ego/Brain is not a Hard Drive. (There are Homebrew Mods though, to use a portion of the brain as storage) If that makes me a dick, so be it. Think of Egocasting as "You lose all your shit." No Body, No Guns, No Ectos, No Data, No Nada. If The Marine can't take his guns what makes that more or less fair than The Hacker having to program/buy a new set of softs?

I'm not trying to piss on your game :) but this comment makes me wonder if we're talking about the same concept. A discussion of Brains/Hardrives or hardware is irrelevant. We're talking about Ego/Software and Data when considering Ego Casting. The Ego is data. Binary Data, the same as a muse's ego and any other software. That's the basic Transuman premise that looks to Uploading, Forking, Ego Casting, AI, and all the other goodies that EP has incorporated into the setting. Whether your muse, fabberprints, skillsofts, AI helpers, XP drugs, Lifelog files, Rep Profiles, AR skins... all of your digital luggage; is [u]bundled with you[/u] in the Ego Cast or not is barely even a consideration. There's Almost Nothing preventing you from E-mailing all of your digital freight to yourself were ever you go. In Fact my Extropian Hatchetman keeps digital stashes and Ego backups all over the inner and outer system. I understand the GM desire not to Assfuck players of characters who rely on physical gear everytime he want's to move the adventure to a new venue. I'm not arguing that that's not a legitimate concern for a GM. I will argue that the players should have read the book and understand the setting and accept that their Morph/Gear dependent characters are going to have to deal with the fact that they loose their gear and morph when they Ego Cast.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Wed, 2011-04-06 21:09

#38

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

InsidiousAlgorythm wrote:
Until they come up with true teleportation, yes they do.

*shrug* As I've said, I disagree.

Wed, 2011-04-06 21:35

#39

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I agree that QE egocasting isn't the norm. I was just discussing the issue. :)

Wed, 2011-04-06 23:00

#40

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

You're not pissing on my game, the more I read the rules the more I agree that the only thing that is carried in a egocast is the ego. The Muse and all the data files are residents of the Cranial Computer and is transferred as a separate file. It might be part of the cost and may even piggyback in the same signal (Not so sure?) but in no way is it tied to the ego. Of course, y'all are more than welcome to run your games as you see fit. My interpretation is that anything that is not the Ego is, simply, not the Ego. Your perfect simulation of the brain is the only data on the 'cast. The Muse is transferred separate from the Ego and files/apps/software are ever present (to a degree) and stored in the Mesh itself. Kinda like using photoshop.com or acrobat.com to make pdfs.

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Thu, 2011-04-07 00:50

#41

Tachi

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I don't think anyone said that the muse and misc. data were part of the ego; just that they, with the ego, constituted the whole of the [i]egocast.[/i] That's my take, they all move as one file packet, one broadcast.

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[IMG]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/ult_userbar.jpg[/...
[IMG]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/remade_userbar.pn...
I don't shoot a man for being incompetent in the Devil's work. I shoot him for being c

Thu, 2011-04-07 01:23

#42

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

That's what I'd taken away from the discussion as well.

Thu, 2011-04-07 09:56

#43

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Tachi wrote:
I don't think anyone said that the muse and misc. data were part of the ego; just that they, with the ego, constituted the whole of the [i]egocast.[/i] That's my take, they all move as one file packet, one broadcast.

I'm of the opinion that it may possibly be one broadcast, but two file packets, One for the Ego and the other for the Muse. The distinction needs to be clear, if for no other reason than plot development. In my games, all other files/data are accessible from anywhere with Mesh access and are not carried with the Ego. Like having a dropbox where you keep all your data.

Quote:
GM: "Your eyes open in your new morph, takes a few moments to adjust to the lighting, but all seems normal". Player: "I check the Mesh and see if I've missed anything". GM: "You can't seem to connect to a network". Player: "I ask my Muse to run a diagnostic on my inserts" GM: "No Answer"

I like to have the ability to take things away from the characters, sometimes permanently, but in this case, a temporary glitch in the stations comms gear left the character w/o access to anything but his own thoughts. I couldn't do this if everything was packed together.

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Thu, 2011-04-07 10:07

#44

Dimuscul

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Quote:

Quote:
"As to Muses and Teamwork Tests; We've decided that the muse's assistance is allready figgured in on in all Infosec, Interfacing, Programming and Research Tests. Thus a muse can only offer some type of bonus through a Complimentary skill. That makes sense to our group because, when you think about it, it would be really strange if a character *Didn't* use his muse for assistance in those tests. That's what a muse is for."

That's an interesting idea ... but in my home campaign there are various flats without muses. What you do in this situation?

Thu, 2011-04-07 10:15

#45

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

InsidiousAlgorythm wrote:
I like to have the ability to take things away from the characters, sometimes permanently, but in this case, a temporary glitch in the stations comms gear left the character w/o access to anything but his own thoughts. I couldn't do this if everything was packed together.

I don't see why you necessarily couldn't, what with Murphy's Law and all that, but then I don't tend to put much value in "hard science" answers to situations like that. Maybe it's just me.

Thu, 2011-04-07 10:21

#46

Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

The answer, Dimuscul, is 'sucks to be a flat'. :) They should have ectos with muses, and it's hard enough for a flat to backup/resleeve/etc. anyway.

Thu, 2011-04-07 10:39

#47

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

Dimuscul wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
"As to Muses and Teamwork Tests; We've decided that the muse's assistance is allready figgured in on in all Infosec, Interfacing, Programming and Research Tests. Thus a muse can only offer some type of bonus through a Complimentary skill. That makes sense to our group because, when you think about it, it would be really strange if a character *Didn't* use his muse for assistance in those tests. That's what a muse is for."
That's an interesting idea ... but in my home campaign there are various flats without muses. What you do in this situation?

A character must declare if they are not using their muse to make relevant tests, or in some situations a character may be denied the use of their muse. In that case the character suffers a -10 penalty to all Infosec, Interfacing, Programming, and Research tests. But: Why would a flat not have a muse????? There's nothing restricting a flat from using software or the mesh. A muse, being the single most effective piece of personal gear IN THE UNIVERSE, should be available to everyone. Frankly I don't see how you could possibly opperate without one in a post singularity environment. If you're thinking that a "flat" is a morph who has no genetic modifications, no cyberware and no bioware I'm going to argue that they don't exist. Where would they have come from? Where do they live in AF10? I'm sure there are people in the system, especially in earth orbit, who have the 'Fall Evacuee' or 'Original Space Colonist' background and were born the old fashioned way. But those people, At Least, have basic biomods to deal with disease, muscle and bone atrophy in Low G, and radiation resistance. They also probably all have cortical stacks and cranial computers too by AF10. Mesh inserts and Muses were around 20 years before the fall. People with out basic mesh inserts and muses before the fall were very poor. Those are not the people who made it to space. I'm sure there are some cult clades of assbackward freaks who refuse to use the mesh or a muse and live short brutal lives as "natural" humans in space. Like there are some people who refuse modern medicine, television and the Web today. Those people don't matter because they're rare, ignorant, and handy capped. I'm not sure how they could figure prominantly in any campaign.

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Thu, 2011-04-07 11:15

#48

Lilith

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

OneTrikPony wrote:
I'm sure there are some cult clades of assbackward freaks who refuse to use the mesh or a muse and live short brutal lives as "natural" humans in space. Like there are some people who refuse modern medicine, television and the Web today. Those people don't matter because they're rare, ignorant, and handy capped. I'm not sure how they could figure prominantly in any campaign.

Ouch. Wearing your opinions on your sleeve there, are we? ;)

Thu, 2011-04-07 11:29

#49

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

LOL, maybe. I'll never be accused of being afraid to voice an opinion before thinking it all the way through. :s About 3 seconds after clicking save the word Amish popped into my head. Doh! I certainly have nothing against Anachronism. I'm excited to be working with a Real old timer Stone Mason on a renovation soon and I hope this is the year I'll finally get to build a forge in my backyard. But, I downloaded the plans for my forge off the [u]internet[/u] from IforgeIron.com. So, I apologize to any Amish people who read my last post, but I have to stand by my statement that you really don't matter. ;)

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Mea Culpa: My mode of speech can make others feel uninvited to argue or participate. This is the EXACT opposite of what I intend when I post.

Thu, 2011-04-07 11:47

#50

InsidiousAlgorythm InsidiousAlgorythm's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

I'm sure there are a lot of Amish reading this on their clunky Babbage machines =)

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Thu, 2011-04-07 14:12

#51

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Re: Muses, Copies, Hacking

OneTrikPony wrote:
If you're thinking that a "flat" is a morph who has no genetic modifications, no cyberware and no bioware I'm going to argue that they don't exist. Where would they have come from? Where do they live in AF10?

Jovian Republic, outer system, exoplanets. Those are the top three answers for these. Neo-Luddites probably find garden worlds and go off to live their merry lives happily, then die shortly thereafter in a myriad of horrible ways.

OneTrikPony wrote:
I'm sure there are some cult clades of assbackward freaks who refuse to use the mesh or a muse and live short brutal lives as "natural" humans in space. Like there are some people who refuse modern medicine, television and the Web today. Those people don't matter because they're rare, ignorant, and handy capped. I'm not sure how they could figure prominantly in any campaign.

I can think of a number of ways. Personally, one of the fun things I like to do is experiment with the idea of transhumanity if there wasn't a Fall (typically, the end result is somewhere between Transmetropolitan and Ghost in the Shell; transhumanism with a flavour of cyberpunk), and those have far more situations for "natural" humans; people who riot against various levels of modification. Keep in mind, though, that what you're saying now could be a very fun hook for role reversal. Remember that, even in AF 10, there are lots of forms of modification and life considered odd. All biochauvinists and anti-synth people are exactly the kind of people you describe, and they're quite common. More to the point, though, and to talk of that role reversal, there's posthumans who are VERY out there, who would use the exact same argument, even if the changes they offer are repellent to transhumanity as a whole. I suggested a while back a posthuman instrument created from several fused bodies and containing several egos. There's a thing in Gatecrashers that describes something similar. These self-proclaimed enlightened beings might consider that entirely acceptable and even rational. Their attitudes would be very similar to the one you just displayed here. Imagine the contrast as players must deal with fighting off loonie Lunars from a Cognite research lab developing better synthmorphs... And then having to firebomb a research lab some posthumans are developing new tech in offworld, because they could use it harmfully. Similar game ideas can come from interacting with people talking about VR Addiction and the dangers of mesh inserts, letting the players tut and shake their heads, then have them blow up a lab researching TITAN tech.

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[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]

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