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Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you

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SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Hiyas! Having read almost all of the RAW on this topic (I believe), I can't fathom why The Powers that Be haven't taken over & used technology (cortical stacks, backups, psychosurgery), for total mind control of everyone (I see no way of halting this, other than "ethical grounds")? I mean, what's stopping any PTB from inserting a mind control device in the cortical stack or during backup, via psychosurgery (any failsafes)? Am I mistaken? Thanks! SF
mack2028 mack2028's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Because in EP personal power is very high and if people find out someone is trying to mind control the public they will riot. Lots of people with rocks can break into practically anywhere and kill anyone if they have nanoplagues and nuclear devices then it could be really bad.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
So, yes, you could totally do it. You'd just have to never, ever get caught.
bblonski bblonski's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Same reason the powers that be haven't used technology (computers, TV, the internet) to control all information and brainwash us. The conspiracy would have to so wide spread that, at that point, what would be the point? They already own everything anyway. The "Powers that Be" are usually several conflicting factions that are too busy fighting each other that no one faction can take control of everyone. Then again, who's to say they don't try? (Every country uses propaganda to control its citizens to varying degrees of success.) Sounds like a good plot hook to me.
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Exactly. There are more subtle ways to go about controlling the population. Methods that do not have the constant risk of rioting if revealed. There is a good reason that overuse of Forking is considered a social faux pas in the Inner System, because the Hypercorps know that control of the labor supply is paramount to continued profit. So they released the memetic engineers to run propaganda campaigns that highlight the dangers of forking in a catchy, jingle soundbite. They do the same with Uplift/AGI rights. And why New Economies are dangerous places to live. And how people on Titan are slaves to the social majority. They already control how the masses think and live, why would they risk all that for a little bit more control? The profit is already rolling in.
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Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
I think there's other reasons forking is illegal or a faux pas in such places, beyond the obvious problems of identity and relationships, the most obvious being property rights, voting, and ownership. It creates sticky situations all around. Also, you reminded me of the XERXES announcements from System Shock 2 (great EP inspiration, by the way; SHODAN is a TITAN if there ever was one) and the Rapture Reminders from Bioshock. "Gee, Chen, I sure feel bad about N3319." "The AGI controlling the transit system?" "Yeah, he says he wants to do other things besides guide tram cars. I feel bad for the guy." "Oh, Jean, you're so silly. You shouldn't feel bad for it." "I shouldn't?" "No. N3319, like all AGIs, was created and programmed to do his job. He's happiest and best equipped to do that, and only that. Unlike us humans, his mind was crafted for a specific purpose." "But doesn't it think and feel? AGIs are sapient beings too." "Ha ha, oh Jean. N3319 is intelligent, but not like you or I. It's created for a purpose and shouldn't deviate from it. You remember what happened last time AIs were self-directed." "The TITANs." "Yeah, the TITANs. Some day, we'll be happy to integrate AGIs into the transhuman family in a safe and controlled manner, and AGIs like N3319 are helping lead the way to that day, but until then, remember, AGIs have their place." "Wow, Chen, I never thought of it that way. I didn't know feeling bad for an AGI could encourage another Fall!" "Well, now you know." [i]This has been an Olympus Oration, reminding you that AGIs have their place, and that advocating to remove their restrictions endangers us all.[/i]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Mindcontrol costs resources. If you want to brainwash your population you need to maintain the drugs, psychologists, psychosurgeons and other systems, as well as accept the unavoidable costs of occasional failures and outside opprobrium. Also, most societies in Eclipse Phase are open (yes, even the PC - check out the description in Sunwards): people can and do comment on what is going on, criticize rulers and read the fine print in government reports. It is tricky to get mindcontrol onto the agenda without a lot of people discussing it. That said, given the nature of governments they will want to have a mind control monopoly. And once you have such a great tool, why not use it? (I have personally heard a senior UK civil servant say that she liked the drug-based mind-control options in a particular future scenario we created together) There are mentions in Sunward of secret experiments in social control using various means, and I can imagine various groups looking for better ways. For example, instead of mindcontrolling everybody, why not put in a few shills that knowingly or not are the eyes and ears of the government in the population, influencing their neighbours with their guaranteed views? I am pondering writing an adventure where the PCs visit an autonomist habitat gone bad. Some people were concerned that the citizens were not cooperating enough - they were misbehaving like normal humans do, not living up to the high visions of the autonomists. So they began introducing a bit of artificial help. The idea was to induce a larger "circle of concern" and stronger altruism using a oxytocin-like drug that infused everything in the habitat. It worked: people began to trust each other more and feel goodwill to strangers in the habitat. Except that it also strengthened an us-vs-them mentality: habitat citizens are good, everybody else are suspect and can be pushed aside by the interests of the habitat. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5984/1408.abstract The synthmorphs were the first who were declared unmutual and removed. Then the few holdouts/immune biomorphs were forcibly cured using psychosurgery. So now we have a habitat of fiercely loyal xenophobes...
Extropian
SEÑOR FASE SEÑOR FASE's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Mindcontrol costs resources. If you want to brainwash your population you need to maintain the drugs, psychologists, psychosurgeons and other systems, as well as accept the unavoidable costs of occasional failures and outside opprobrium. Hiyas! I was thinking along the lines of introducing a subtle MC nanovirus in the cortical stack, for instance. SF
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Forgive this if it sounds like a crude mockery of the organization but it must be said: The United States of America is also an open society, with people commenting, criticizing rulers, and reading the fine print. Even I, a Canadian citizen, was able to read the entire 1000-some-odd page medicare bill when it came out (I had a lot of time on my hands, then). It doesn't eliminate the fact that just shy of 20% of people in the United States (according to a Pew poll) believe that their president is a Muslim because of talking-head media pundits. A blatant lie, easily exposed by five minutes of research, is heartily accepted by a fifth of the population. This is just one example, as well; there's plenty of examples of incredible tactics developed through public relations to control people. Even things like Embedded Journalism only exist as a control tactic. You don't need drugs for mind control; just repeat things enough, make sure that mainstream media doesn't seem TOO biased, and eventually people start to believe anything you tell them.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
Exactly: 'culture' has always been the preferred form of human mind control.
mack2028 mack2028's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
"I was thinking along the lines of introducing a subtle MC nanovirus in the cortical stack, for instance." Psycosurgery needs to be tailored, everyone is a perfect unique snowflake.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
SEÑOR FASE wrote:
I was thinking along the lines of introducing a subtle MC nanovirus in the cortical stack, for instance.
Besides the need for individual fine-tuning, there is the problem of side effects. I would be surprised if something like this worked 100% of the time, and in a few percent of cases you would get bad side effects like neural damage. A few percent of your *entire population* would be broken. That is likely unacceptable. More subtle methods like YGBM hacks, shills, and propaganda have the advantage of not wreaking so much havoc - when they fail, they fail quietly. And it may be easier to hide who is behind it. Still, all of this makes a *great* Firewall mission. Some government is working on mindcontrol and will at the very least hurt a lot of people. At worst they will succeed well: if that happens most other governments will over time follow suit. A wholesale erosion of free will is a much more subtle xrisk than being eaten by TITANs but still something Firewall wants stomped on.
Extropian
mack2028 mack2028's picture
Re: Mind control, Eclipse Phase & you
This ironically reminds me of an episode of saved by the bell (my sister made me watch it) where in they claim that subliminal messages to vote for a particular candidate were inserted into the pizza commercials and the populaces proceded to cut him into 16 equal slices without knowing why.