Hello everyone, this is my first post. I'm a big fan of Eclipse Phase, both the setting and the system. I've been working recently on creating an alien setting that uses EP rules, and I was hoping for some help on fleshing out the gritty details of how technology in this world works.
Let me say first that by alien setting, I mean a world completely unlike our own populated by non-humans, untouched by humans. This is kind of my thing, and this current setting I'm working on is just one of about a dozen ideas I've been developing over the years. This particular world is mostly covered with water, and each intelligent race is water-breathing.
Think of civilization on this planet as being a "society of uplifts". The intelligent peoples of the water world evolved and advanced under the guidance of an incredibly advanced posthuman race (type III or IV civilization here). I'm of the opinion that a real alien society couldn't develop under the ocean past the hunter-gatherer stage, so these creatures decided to step in and make the planet their own little experiment. What develops over the years is a civilization with access to advanced technology (nanotech, mesh networks, maybe resleeving), that is basically handed to them by their god-like benefactors. The people of this world have no real understanding of how to produce any of this stuff, or even how it works, it would all be very ritualized. What happens in my story is that the advanced aliens, for no reason that anyone can understand, disappear from this world, leaving behind a lot of confused, desperate, and angry people.
I'd be happy to go into the details of this setting more if anyone is interested, but what I would really like to ask the community of technology-oriented people is this; what kind of tech from Eclipse Phase would actually work underwater, and how?
If these aliens are using metals and future materials, is it possible to manufacture them in a liquid environment? If not, would they need to use dry-land facilities manned by robots? Or if it's unrealistic to think of these people using weapons and equipment similar to ours, would they have a better aquatic alternative, like organic machines?
What kind of weapons from EP would work? I would think that railguns would still function in the liquid medium, but I'm not so sure about spray weapons or beam weapons.
Would the Mesh still work in an underwater environment as it's written (with radio signals)? Or would it have to be based on nanotech?
Because everything kind of goes back to the interference of an advanced alien race and their crazy nanotechnology, the possibilities are endless, but I still have trouble visualizing what it would all look like. Anyway, I'd love to hear some speculation.
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EP Aquatic Alien Setting
Sat, 2011-03-19 17:22
#1
EP Aquatic Alien Setting
Sat, 2011-03-19 19:37
#2
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
A lot of it ought to work fine, if manufactured for it. Smart materials can likely handle water and pressure fine. The main exceptions would be railgun weapons (immersed in a conductive liquid - they will just short-circuits) and plasma weapons (but remember that explosions and ultrasound underwater can be very nasty - water conducts pressure waves much better than air). Electromagnetic waves (including EMP) might be more limited due to absorption - lasers have a range of a few hundred meters, radio will maybe reach a few kilometres at most. I think local mesh works, but over longer range you either need optic fibers or acoustic signals (which are much more bandwidth limited than electromagnetism).
With nanotech they could manufacture manufacturing bubbles/fabbers that had the right internal environment. It is not too different from how some hightech today is done in clean rooms or under non-oxidizing atmospheres. Bootstrapping advanced tech on a waterworld might be hard, but maintaining it if there are enough user-friendly manufacturing systems might work fine.
So one key thing is what kind of tech for making tech the gift-givers gave the aquatics. Cornucopia machines with pre-set blueprints (either including new cornucopias or not, making them common or strategic hierlooms)? AI support (accessed through ritual prayer interfaces)? Nanoswarms? Internal biotech? Ubiqitious nanosurveillance that orders required equipment from surface factories and drops it where needed?
One cool take on this is found in Neverness by David Zindell. The aquatic posthumans of Agathange are seal/dolphin/humans living in a ocean full of biotech and nanotech - essentially the whole ecosystem is a giant Internet and cornucopia machine with every living being as a computational node. Including the agathangians themselves, who have bio-nanotech organs that allow them to do nanoconstruction... in a very sexual way. They are trying to turn the whole planet into a giant networked consciousness.
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Sat, 2011-03-19 22:27
#3
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
I would say all of the above, but with several limitations. Let me add a few more important details first. The disappearance of the gift-givers (I like that designation) was due to an attack by a parasite, an ancient native lifeform of the water-world. I still haven't decided if this parasite should be intelligent or mindless, but it would be similar to the Exsurgent virus in how it affects it's hosts. When it infected the gift-givers, they didn't go homicidal, they just went into a coma of sorts. But during the time of my campaign, it has been slowly infecting other lifeforms on the water-world, turning them into plague zombies, that sort of thing (this isn't exactly a Fall scenario, maybe if the Fall was slowly stretched out over hundreds of years).
This happened during a transitional stage for the aquatics (I also like that designation). There are three intelligent races being uplifted, including a group of cephalopods, and a rough analogue of whales and dolphins. They had a happy, utopian society up and running, but like I said (and kind of like you described) everything is very ritualized when it comes to using advanced tech. They had quickly been brought up from animals, to hunter-gatherers, to a highly developed industrial society. Everything worked because of their intense religious devotion for these god-like beings, and the aquatics relied on them and their machines very heavily to accomplish things. The only people who knew how to interface with cornucopia machines or program nanoswarms were the caste of priests that developed over time. The long-term plan was to make all of this technology accessible to everyone, but the parasite was awakened before anyone got to this stage.
So yes, I think there should be cornucopia machines, biotech, and hives, but they are not user-friendly, and only a small portion of the population even know how to get them working. I also think the CM's are rare in this setting, and they wouldn't have blueprints for making new ones. A lot of the equipment that people use is scavenged.
One idea that I had was to have the gift-givers basically be a race of self-replicating nanoswarms, and so they would be physically present in almost every living thing, and also have large operating nodes all throughout the surface of the planet. This would give the characters in my campaign a lot more options for using and manipulating nanotech. They wouldn't need hives, they could just use the de-activated swarms that are floating everywhere in the ocean.
Also, I've never read David Zindell, but that sounds fantastic. Do you have any other recommendations for far-out, alien-focused science-fiction?
Sun, 2011-03-20 03:10
#4
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
http://lesswrong.com/lw/y4/three_worlds_collide_08/
(this could be turned into a great EP adventure of first contact)
I doubt any naturally evolved organism is much of a threat to a Level III civilization with mature nanotechnology. But the parasite could of course be something else: a backwater of an uplift-world might breed some nasty nanotech computer virus (the offspring of a piece of spamware and a badly implemented cognitive hack) that might cause trouble. Most big threats to advanced civilizations are due to themselves - and can be left suitably vague in the game (how do you explain spam and botnets to stone age people?)
The fun part is of course that they are now hacking the 'gods'. And might well awaken them, or some of their AI defense systems.
David Brin's Uplift novels come to mind. Many are a bit too humanoid for my taste, but it is still nice reading.
I like the Pattern Jugglers from Alastair Reynolds novels; while they make brief and suitably mysterious appearances in several, they are described in some more detail (robbing them IMHO of their mystery) in the short story "Turquoise Days" (still worth reading, especially together with Diamond Dogs, which is definitely EP and gatecrashing material!)
For another really good, really alien kind of alien, see Blindsight by Peter Watts. And the "human" crew of the expedition is very EP.
Karl Schroeder's Permanence also has some nicely alien aliens, including some discussion about the post-intelligent stage that is pure EP. However, the aliens (except for an artefact) do not appear directly in the story.
Then there are the aliens in Greg Egan's Diaspora. These are species that the upload/AGI civilization emerging from Earth finds weird.
My friend Eliezer has written some fun species in this story:
—

Sun, 2011-03-20 21:54
#5
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/watts_01_10/)
Read this. It retells John Carpenter's "The Thing" (1982) from the
monster's perspective. You will need to see the movie first, but the
monster fits in very nicely with your proposed setting's gift-givers.
7) Egan, G. Diaspora.
Skip the novel, though worthy in its own right, because it won't help
your setting. Read instead the excerpt "Wang's Carpets", which you
might find on Egan's website.
#8) Lovecraft, H. P. The Shadow Over Innsmouth.
Deep Ones:Humans::Gift-Givers:Uplifts
(If you can get past the idea of sex with fish, which just wrecks my
suspension of disbelief.)
#9) Pagan Publishing. Delta Green: Targets of Opportunity.
Read the chapter on Black Cod Island, which describes what happens if
Deep Ones interbreed for centuries instead of a few generations. The
reimagined Deep One-human hybrids, elder Deep Ones, and their
biological technobabble all would provide good flavor text for your
setting.
10) Butler, O. E. Lillith's Brood
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilith%27s_Brood)
The ugly side of uplift, and applied to humans. Like the Shadow Over
Innsmouth, but told from the collaborator's side with the aliens as
humanity's saviors.
11) Farnell, D. Unlikely Utopians: Ecotopian Dreaming in H.P. Lovecraft’s “The Shadow over Innsmouth” and Octavia Butler’s Lilith’s Brood’
A recorded lecture comparing Butler and Lovecraft, and a good precis
of items nine and ten.
(http://arts.monash.edu.au/ecps/assets/podcasts/2010-08-31t1303-farnell-u...)
1) Brin, D. Startide Rising
Skim it for flavor text, or find a copy of GURPS Uplift for numbers
about cetacean uplifts.
2) Reynolds, A. Turquoise Days.
Read the whole thing.
3) Reynolds, A. Diamond Dogs.
Good and very creepy, but not really relevant to your setting.
4) Far Future Enterprises. 2320AD
Read the section on the Pentapods, and ignore the rest.
5) Pulver, D. Centauri Dreams.
Resleeved humans exploring alien ruins on Alpha Centauri. The aliens
aren't gone. Their final war turned the planet-wide utility fog into a
disassembler swarm. The surviving aliens uploaded themselves into the
computational layer of the fog. The aliens haven't noticed the human
colonists, but the colonists have started to figure out the fog.
Oh, and it's Pulver. Watch out for the signature cat-girls.
6) Watts, P. The Things. (—
Sometimes the delete key serves best.
Mon, 2011-03-21 10:29
#6
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
Creating a dolphin cargo cult? I like it!
Bear in mind that a lot of technology will have a lower range under the water. Kinetic and beam weapons, launchers, radios, lights and so on are all more disturbed in water than in space or atmosphere.
Mon, 2011-03-21 13:12
#7
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
Thanks for all the suggestions people, I will definitely be checking out Diaspora and Diamond Dogs/Turquoise Days. I hope to work my way through the whole Eclipse Phase reading list one day (or I'd at least like to sample each author).
There are a few other questions that have come up as I've been sitting down and writing.
How would transportation work on this world? I was thinking of a mass transit system that would have been in place before society collapsed. Either a network of high-speed trains that move through air-filled tunnels, or something that resembles those transport tubes from Futurama (that would be a lot more fun). Is any of this feasible?
I was also thinking about vehicles, and what kinds would still be useful underwater. I could see submarines coming in handy, if nothing else as a sort of mobile home that can be easily defended. There would also probably be mining vehicles or tanks that move along the ocean floor. Would there be any point in using boats or aircraft? I would think you could get where you're going a lot faster above the ocean than beneath it, but you'd also have to take a lot of water on board for everyone to breathe.
Also, new topic, how would you design a habitat or settlement in the underwater environment? I imagined large, sealed-off arcologies that grow their own food, produce their own power, and are relatively cut-off from the outside world. Would all settled communities look something like this? What sorts of problems would you face if you tried to build a community that was open to the rest of the ocean? I would think there would be all kinds of issues, from algal blooms to predators coming and going as they pleased.
Mon, 2011-03-21 14:01
#8
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
This really depends on the species in question. A fully transhuman species will just egocast everywhere. Dolphins can breath out of the water, so they can ride on boats, while something like a fish would need a more ingenious life-support system (not necessarily water). Going over the water would indeed be better for long-distance, super-fast transport, but it may be comparable to suborbitals for us - the life support and its hybrid nature limits its usefulness.
With your tubes, since you're already pumping out all of the water, I wonder if it's any easier to fill those tubes with air than just leave them as a vacuum.
I imagine they'd also have a water version of the segway, for lazy fish, but small submarines also certainly make sense.
Mon, 2011-03-21 20:14
#9
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
My first EP fanfiction story, [url=http://eclipsephase.com/fiction-heavy-water]Heavy Water[/url], takes place partially underwater.
The real question is finding or making a setting with enough liquid water for an underwater settlement to be viable.
—
[url=http://farcastblog.com]Farcast, an Eclipse Phase yearblog[/url]
Tue, 2011-03-22 05:36
#10
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
If it is robust or repairable enough, yes. It would be tough to maintain with our kind of tech (pressure difference is much worse than 1 atm to vaccum, plus the corrosive effects of seawater in motion), but maybe with a bit of nanotech self-repair it is not so bad.
Of course, one could build vehicles that make use of the low-friction waterless space above the surface! A kind of inverse submarine, moving on a hydrofoil. You swim into it at the airport, it slowly ascends to the surface, activates the main engines and rush you through the supersurface world to your destination, where it returns to the safe and sane depths.
If you double the size of an underwater vehicle you get twice the surface area and hence twice the water resistance, but you also get eight times as much volume for propulsion - bigger is more efficient. (hence whales, besides the lack of gravity constraints)
Spread of disease would be an issue both inside and outside. Predators are easily wiped out if you are a modestly technological species with some self-preservation.
Algal blooms could be useful for food production, either directly or for "fishfeed". Problems with overfertilization might be their counterpoint to our problems with depletion of soil and water.
Arcologies make sense when you need a lot of efficiency and have a fairly regimented society. A diverse society where individuals live different lives likely doesn't lend itself to arcologies.
Underwater architecture is free to be 3D and has few gravity constraints, but needs to deal with pressure (do the inhabitants survive ascending or descending rapidly?), pollution (how to sweep it away?) and temperature (this might be a reason for enclosed cities - a warm water species living outside its original region. Note that making warm underwater clothing is slightly tricky).
—

Thu, 2011-03-24 21:30
#11
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
Again, thanks for the suggestions everyone. I feel like I'm in a pretty good place to start writing this down and giving it rules. Just for the hell of it, I'll also go over a very brief outline of my campaign. People are welcome to give feedback or suggestions to this too if they like. In some ways the plot feels like something out of a very typical fantasy story, but I'm hoping that exploring a unique environment and getting to play weird sea aliens will give everyone a fresh perspective.
The players in this game will be members of a monastic society. This is a multi-racial group that still worships the gift-givers (most people on this world simply recognize them as a single being called the Goddess). They start off living quietly in one of the arcologies I described earlier. Everyone there has access to fairly advanced tech, although they can't really communicate with the outside world. The game begins with an attack by creatures infected with a strange virus (the very same Exsurgent-like virus that rendered the Goddess completely inert). Despite a spirited defense, all of the monks and common folk living in the monastery will either be killed or driven away by these monsters.
When (and if) the players escape, they will be given a mission by the abbot (as he slowly dies in their tentacles). They are told to find a hidden community of people who serve the Goddess directly, in a distant part of the planet. These servants are not just any normal uplifts, but a fourth race of cybernetic creatures who were created by the Goddess, and are working to revive her (and they would be seen by Goddess worshippers as semi-divine in their own right). So the players will venture out into a strange and uncaring world, on a quest to find the hidden enclave. The world outside the monastery has kinda gone to hell, as previously mentioned. There are roving bands of virus-infected monsters, malfunctioning nanoswarms, and deadly predators. Because hundreds of years have passed since the disappearance of the Goddess, the once proud civilization that existed on the planet has fallen to barbarism. Most people have forgotten the Goddess entirely, so many will view the players as members of a strange cult, or an old, misguided faith (but a misguided faith that has preserved knowledge of nanotech and missile launchers).
The ultimate goal of the campaign, if it goes far enough, is to find a way to "cure" the Goddess, remove the threat that the virus poses to all life on the planet, and bring about the dawn of a new era. Once the players find the hidden settlement of Angel-Cyborg-Nautilus-Lobsters, that will become clear, and they will have the tools and the allies to make that happen.
The antagonist of this whole crazy story would be this mysterious virus, and I'm still on the fence about it's true nature and it's capabilities. Originally, I thought of it as an ancient creature that originally was the sole inhabitant of this water world. A natural parasite that grew and evolved and spread it's biomass over the whole planet, until it reached a point where it could control it's own evolution, harvest energy from the planet itself, and think with the capacity of a million supercomputers. And then along came a space-faring posthuman race of nanoswarms that found this creature, and was horrified. They destroyed it (almost), and set about giving this world another chance at developing life, under their own guiding hand. So this creature has millions of years to sit and fester beneath the planet's crust, occasionally popping up to analyze the Goddess's nanomachines, and try to synthesize some kind of virus or toxin to shut down it's enemy. And that's how the Goddess eventually falls, even though it is the product of an incredibly advanced civilization. I know that this is all kind of implausible, that a single organism could ever become that advanced without making use of any technology, but I feel like it makes the back-story a little bit more complex. The Goddess can now be seen as an arrogant, paranoid being that usurped the planet from it's rightful ruler, and all the sentient beings of this world are abominations that shouldn't rightfully exist.
And I was thinking that all of this would slowly be revealed to the players, and in the end they could make their own decision about how they want the world to be. They could become a part of the ancient virus entity if they wanted (because maybe they'd feel bad for it), they could revive the Goddess like their beliefs dictate, or they could say screw it, let's run this planet ourselves. Or, knowing my players they'd come up with some other ridiculous solution, if they even bothered to follow my plot to this point.
So that's it, again feedback is welcome.
Fri, 2011-03-25 05:48
#12
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
Hmm, maybe you could borrow some ideas from this:
http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/Game/Dragons/dragons.html
Maybe the virus is really the Dragons of the waterworld?
Or, like in the sequel campaign set some decades later ( http://www.aleph.se/Dragons3/ ) the real disaster occured when the biological net and the technological net combined and produced massive amount of self-replicating 'spam'?
—

Sat, 2011-03-26 14:29
#13
Re: EP Aquatic Alien Setting
That's an awesome campaign setting, did you design it? I had some trouble viewing the second page, but still I think I get what you're saying. It would be an interesting twist if the viral entity somehow evolved, and changed the circumstances. If it merged it's consciousness fully with the Goddess, then the new resulting creature would have a totally different set of motives. It may want to continue slowly choking the life out of the planet, it may want to create a new race of creatures, or maybe it just wants to leave for other worlds, but can't for some reason. However it turns out, it would come as a big shock to the players that their Goddess as they know her no longer exists, and can't be brought back.