Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Feedback on Potential Major Errata

109 posts / 0 new
Last post
Wed, 2011-03-02 18:48
sjmcc13 sjmcc13's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
Rcarter wrote:
I respectfully disagree. I don't think a shredder could punch a hole in a hab, but a variety of weapons in some circumstances have a large potential to damage the walls protecting us from vacuum exposure. A shotgun using common rounds does not unless that barrier is exceptionally tenuous.
why??? the difference between an armor-piercing bullet and a normal bullet is the metal it is made out of, the same can be done for shotguns. if you are worried about penetrating the hull you use ammo that will not do so, regardless of the weapon. your reasons why shotguns are so special is not really a valid reason. that and worrying about the hull just sends you to energy weapons over kinetic weapons anyways (this is making me remember the reason they use those energy guns in B5 being that they will not destroy the hull)
Rcarter wrote:
We've been using pump action shotguns since the late 1800's and shotguns in various incarnations for over 500 years - they haven't changed much since then,
Yes the first Pump action shotgun was designed in 1882, that is prety late in the 1800's, but they have been improved since them. Except that we now have automatic shotguns, though if you compare the firearms of 500 years ago to those of today you will see that the following has changed -cases and blasting caps were developed so the rounds can be prepared in advance, as opposed to a manual load every time. - the powder used has been replaced, modern firearms use modern gunpowder which is an improvement on the gunpowder from back them -the barrel forging method has been upgraded with modern gunpowder. These weapons have not stayed static, they are constantly being refined in little ways, and EP is a setting where there have been allot of scientific discoveries that would be effecting their design.
Rcarter wrote:
they're not going to change much in another 100-200 years despite radical technological shifts - the fact that EC's primary weapons are still kinetic slug throwers decries any argument to the contrary.
except that the kinetic slug throwers are either Rail guns or have access to much more advanced ammunition, though really that the basic principals are still in use means nothing to how they can have developed. I mean that kinetic slug thrower can not shoot bullets that break apart and start eating what they hit. one thing that makes kinetic weapons dangerous is the special ammo, which comes from the scientific development.
Rcarter wrote:
While yes I think the shredder weapons are a derivative they are not a a replacement to shotgun, as I said - creatively or practically. Firearms may be streamlined and refined in eclipse phase but that doesn't mean that their archaic counterparts have vanished if anything the existence of nanofabs should make them even more readily available.
Avaliable yes, but why would you want them when you can get so much nastier options avaliable. the only place where a shotgun is going to be an exceptional weapon is close range, but then again at close range a shredder is already really dangerous, as you can fire a shredder in SA mode for 4d10+5 (27 average) with an AP of -10 damage 33 times without reloading of FA mode (with a 37 damage average) 10 times, as opposed to a PA shotgun which can be fired 3 times. Actually that is the reason that they would not be using a shotgun, they are nasty weapons but a shredder can be used just as nasty, is smaller and solves shotguns major combat weakness, ammo capacity.
Top
Wed, 2011-03-02 19:29
Rcarter Rcarter's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
sjmcc13 wrote:
Rcarter wrote:
I respectfully disagree. I don't think a shredder could punch a hole in a hab, but a variety of weapons in some circumstances have a large potential to damage the walls protecting us from vacuum exposure. A shotgun using common rounds does not unless that barrier is exceptionally tenuous.
why??? the difference between an armor-piercing bullet and a normal bullet is the metal it is made out of, the same can be done for shotguns. if you are worried about penetrating the hull you use ammo that will not do so, regardless of the weapon. your reasons why shotguns are so special is not really a valid reason. that and worrying about the hull just sends you to energy weapons over kinetic weapons anyways (this is making me remember the reason they use those energy guns in B5 being that they will not destroy the hull)
Rcarter wrote:
We've been using pump action shotguns since the late 1800's and shotguns in various incarnations for over 500 years - they haven't changed much since then,
Yes the first Pump action shotgun was designed in 1882, that is prety late in the 1800's, but they have been improved since them. Except that we now have automatic shotguns, though if you compare the firearms of 500 years ago to those of today you will see that the following has changed -cases and blasting caps were developed so the rounds can be prepared in advance, as opposed to a manual load every time. - the powder used has been replaced, modern firearms use modern gunpowder which is an improvement on the gunpowder from back them -the barrel forging method has been upgraded with modern gunpowder. These weapons have not stayed static, they are constantly being refined in little ways, and EP is a setting where there have been allot of scientific discoveries that would be effecting their design.
Rcarter wrote:
they're not going to change much in another 100-200 years despite radical technological shifts - the fact that EC's primary weapons are still kinetic slug throwers decries any argument to the contrary.
except that the kinetic slug throwers are either Rail guns or have access to much more advanced ammunition, though really that the basic principals are still in use means nothing to how they can have developed. I mean that kinetic slug thrower can not shoot bullets that break apart and start eating what they hit. one thing that makes kinetic weapons dangerous is the special ammo, which comes from the scientific development.
Rcarter wrote:
While yes I think the shredder weapons are a derivative they are not a a replacement to shotgun, as I said - creatively or practically. Firearms may be streamlined and refined in eclipse phase but that doesn't mean that their archaic counterparts have vanished if anything the existence of nanofabs should make them even more readily available.
Avaliable yes, but why would you want them when you can get so much nastier options avaliable. the only place where a shotgun is going to be an exceptional weapon is close range, but then again at close range a shredder is already really dangerous, as you can fire a shredder in SA mode for 4d10+5 (27 average) with an AP of -10 damage 33 times without reloading of FA mode (with a 37 damage average) 10 times, as opposed to a PA shotgun which can be fired 3 times. Actually that is the reason that they would not be using a shotgun, they are nasty weapons but a shredder can be used just as nasty, is smaller and solves shotguns major combat weakness, ammo capacity.
Ultimately I suppose its a question of utility and preference. Sure shredders are comparable derivatives but they are different in some major ways. I don't think transhumans in EC think in game terms and how many dice they get to roll for damage. Following your line of thought its like asking why should I use a pistol when an assault rifle does more damage and has more ammo? The answer is its a different weapon with different utility and aesthetic. Technology changes and weapons are modified and improved - I simply disagree that the shredder is an adequate permutation as a replacement for the shotgun. I think seekers would be closer to the utilitarian aspect of a shotgun but still not precisely enough to be a replacement. The versatility of the shotgun has allowed it to be used in many different ways -a limited flamethrower, a riot control weapon and a very succesful mortar and thats just off the top of my head. That being said all I'm doing is advocating that rules/stats for Shotguns, being a baseline weapon type, be included in the rule set.
—
www.intangiblefire.com
Top
Wed, 2011-03-02 20:15
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
I still don't understand. Your argument is that shotguns, unlike anything else, can be flamethrowers and mortars? In EP?
Top
Wed, 2011-03-02 20:55
sjmcc13 sjmcc13's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
Yerameyahu wrote:
I still don't understand.
I am thinking it is a case of him needing to see the name spelled out explicitly. It is probably the same problem with people wanting a Katana in fantasy campaigns, have convinced themselves that is is a much better weapon then it actually is. All the alternate uses mentioned are ones that are only done because the size of the ammunition allows for other projectiles to be used (eg : beanbag rounds for crowd control) but the advanced weapons and nanotech of EP make it so these effects can be made numerous types of rounds, and some of those functions are just better done with other weapons. Oh and Rcarter, the residents of EP ARE aware of how the different weapons do different amounts of damage, for the same reasons we are, they are able to analyze the wounds that the weapons leave behind to determine which did more harm to the subject. they are not thinking in terms of dice but they are aware of the amount of damage that the weapons can pull off, and a FA close attack from a shredder is enough that it will normally leave the target unconscious and bleeding to death (5 wound levels at once will tend to do that), the SA attack will normally be able to do this as well to a (flat or splicer).
Top
Wed, 2011-03-02 22:38
Rcarter Rcarter's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
Rcarter wrote:
I respectfully disagree.... That being said all I'm doing is advocating that rules/stats for Shotguns, being a baseline weapon type, be included in the rule set.
I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression but I'm not interested in having a debate over it or arguing semantics with you. I'm only advocating the inclusion of weapons that would exist in the EC setting, shotguns and crossbows among them, into the core book or at the very least a future supplement.
—
www.intangiblefire.com
Top
Thu, 2011-03-03 17:23
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
And what I am wondering is why would shotguns exist? What can they do that other options can't? Specialty ammo can be used by just about any gun so that reason doesn't exist, for CQC the shredder/shard pistol win so that reason is dead, not many people going hunting anymore so that market is kind of gone. What would be the point of their existence when there are things that do what they do better? And before you say it yes people in EP would think about it from a mechanical point of view because there are still numbers in real life. The reason I bought one pistol over another is because of the numbers showing one was better, the reason I bought one car over the other is the numbers showing it's superiority, if I was going to pick between a shredder and a shotgun I would pick the shredder because by the numbers it's a better gun.
—
C-rep +1
Top
Wed, 2011-03-09 10:37
Sopbil Sopbil's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
Hello, Minor error on page 106 in the rulebook (not corrected in the errata either). Under languages spoken on Titan "svensk" is listed as a language, this word means a person from the country of Sweden not the actual language that swedes speak, the language is called "svenska". Just bought the book and i love the setting, if there is enough published adventures (im a lazy gm) it will be my groups new "main" rpg. Cheers from Sweden
Top
Wed, 2011-03-09 10:47
Sopbil Sopbil's picture
Re: Feedback on Potential Major Errata
woaw, first post is also a double post... Arrgh! And now i see there is a separate topic for the core rule book errata, sorry, will post it there instead.
Top

Pages