Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Thought experiment: building a safe hab

11 posts / 0 new
Last post
DataPacRat DataPacRat's picture
Thought experiment: building a safe hab
I'm trying to get a better handle on EP by looking at it from the point of view of someone who's nearly powerless, but has the chance to start defending themselves against a hostile universe - the kobold's point of view, to put it one way. I'm trying to work out just how much time and effort would be required to build a hab that's reasonable secure from a given level of threat. (The background I'm using in my imagination involves a private backup in a teeny synth or robot sleeve, with a desktop cornucopia, some solar panelling and batteries, punted off onto a random rock that nobody's using for anything yet; which failed to receive a 'still alive' signal on schedule (or, perhaps, is still getting said signal regularly, but the random number generator decided to wake up the backup anyway, in case the signal is being spoofed). Feel free to start from some other point if you prefer, like a pair of starry-eyed adolescents wanting to create the perfect love-nest where their families can't keep them apart, or a would-be mad scientist who has to create a lab from scratch, or a utopian idealist, or a survivalist who wants to hide from the next TITANs, or whatever else you want to come up with...) The lowest level of threat I can think of is something like a simple mugger - some idjit who'll happily squish your cyberbrain into wreckage and steal your nanofab, just because they can. The initial preparation against such a threat that comes to mind is the EP-tech equivalent of a spear or handgun - whatever lethal ranged weapon can be nanofabbed the fastest, most likely meaning a slugthrower pistol (since it only costs Low). The next priority would likely be sensors, to keep a better watch out for such a mugger - and, if possible, any ships heading in the direction of the rock that might carry such a mugger. A third priority, once the sensors are developed enough to see other rocks floating around in space, would be the creation of a new backup to discreetly launch off to a new anonymous location. And, of course, another priority would be to have the nanofab make more nanofabs, increasing the building capacity so everything can be built sooner. The next lowest level of threat I can think of... is a /band/ of such barbarians, say a dozen or so. The sensors would be just as useful for seeing them as a lone mugger; and while a single pistol could serve to make a single such minor predator think twice, more extensive defensive systems would be required to deter a group. Something like a building with walls to protect the nanofab and sleeve within, and a selection of weaponry to use if the muggers break out some crowbars, something equivalent to some home-defense shotguns or varmint rifles. Of course, once a hard point like that is made, then it itself becomes a potential prize for someone to try to take for themselves - and I've barely started getting a handle of all the ways described in the EP corebook by which one group can force another to do something they don't want. So... what methods of attack have you seen in EP games most often? What methods are available in EP that aren't usually used in other RPG settings?
Thank you for your time,
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
#1 question is what's on this asteroid. If it's just a normal S-class asteroid, you can make some fantastic sand castles, but you're not going to be able to make basic things like gun powder, fire, electrical wiring, computers and so on.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
The nice thing about space is that hiding is tough. In my still ongoing project to write a hard science analysis of space warfare, one of the clear conclusions is that it is very hard to creep up on somebody who is watching carefully. A few Watts of power, solar heating or a radioactive energy source makes you detectable across thousands of kilometres... as long as a sensor looks at you. The problem is that there is so much sky, and covering it long enough to get a good signal to noise ratio takes plenty of time. But if you build a slightly paranoid habitat with lots of sensors you can do an accurate sky scan within less than an hour, and that is usually enough to see if anything is coming. As long as nobody is coming, you don't need to worry about macroscopic weapons. I would still be worried about software infiltration. Better keep your firewalls up to date so you don't get subverted. And nanodefenses are a good idea - those sensors will not spot a spore drifting towards you. For habitat defence, you can either use big railguns or phased array lasers (the larger surface the lasers cover, the sharper they can focus). The former have a range of a few hundred kilometres, the others about a light second (under good conditions). A habitat with an asteroid has some great defensive advantages: you have plenty of mass to dump heat into (spaceships don't) and if you are inside the asteroid you have lots of armour (even a rubble pile of ice is amazingly tough to get through). On the downside, if you are attacked you cannot easily dodge like a spaceship. In any case, to run this kind of system you need proper targeting AI, which might not be entirely easy to come by. There are certainly plenty of open source gun nuts out there, but I wouldn't exactly recommend all their blueprints. Of course, you could just subscribe to a well renowned security firm.
Extropian
root root's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
root@Building a safe hab [hr] If I have this right, you sort of want to have the character's backups to fill a niche in the environment that everyone else doesn't want so that they can live in peace? Their biggest problem isn't going to be the exterminators coming in with plasma rifles to kill the nest, its the other people you are competing with for that niche. For instance, your rats would bump into my space roaches, the smurf people from Luna mentioned in Sunward, and every gengineered pet that got loose into the environment. I've always imagined some of the scum barges and more anarchic habs to be as crowded as a fairy bazaar.
[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]
ssfsx17 ssfsx17's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
Let's finish working out a plausible method of attack that is not easily detected. Here's one possibility: There is a Comet Express (or some other reputable hypercorporation) ship making the rounds through the solar system. Some criminals pay the extra credits to stow a "private" box onboard, intended to be delivered to an inactive criminal contact living in a target habitat. This box actually contains a dormant hit squad who will be awakened when the box is opened. The hit squad is sleeved in morphs that look like standard maintenance/janitor robots, but which have had cyberbrains and weapons added in secret compartments. Depending on the habitat's policies on maintenance robots, the criminal contact may need to pull out the cyberbrains and weapons, and stick them onto cheap Case morphs. ((This is based on something my players have actually planned before, although they did not execute it)) So, how do you defend against such an attack?


@-rep: 2 | x-rep: 1 | y-rep: 1

root root's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
root@Building a safe hab [hr] Resleeve and bill them for the damage?
[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
No defense is foolproof on the scale of weapons available in EP, but one of the happy corollaries is that resources are widely available. As long as you make yourself generally unobtrusive, you're not likely to be threatened by anyone. Your best bet for safety is just to make yourself relatively self-sufficient and avoid being caught up in anything too political. If I wanted to create my own safe haven, out among the stars, I'd go for a small station that's largely digital in nature; reduce the number of parts that can fail, bodies included, and run everything digitally. Outside of that, use lots of robots to maintain things and trade services, like product design, for materials to repair parts as they wear out over time. That said, I'd be even happier to build such a mini safe haven on a planet, rather than off-world. Maybe build it near one of the Martian lakes and use the water for a deuterium reactor.
DataPacRat DataPacRat's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
Arenamontanus wrote:
I would still be worried about software infiltration. Better keep your firewalls up to date so you don't get subverted. And nanodefenses are a good idea - those sensors will not spot a spore drifting towards you.
Quote:
Of course, you could just subscribe to a well renowned security firm.
True - if you had something to subscribe /with/, to pay them. Which leads to building safety through an entirely different method - acquiring enough economic goods to hire someone /else/ to do security. Starting with just oneself, a nanofab, and some raw mass, it may take a little while before that's possible, but in the mid-to-long term, it's not a bad idea.
root wrote:
If I have this right, you sort of want to have the character's backups to fill a niche in the environment that everyone else doesn't want so that they can live in peace?
That's pretty well it, yes.
Quote:
Their biggest problem isn't going to be the exterminators coming in with plasma rifles to kill the nest, its the other people you are competing with for that niche. For instance, your rats would bump into my space roaches, the smurf people from Luna mentioned in Sunward, and every gengineered pet that got loose into the environment. I've always imagined some of the scum barges and more anarchic habs to be as crowded as a fairy bazaar.
Hm... there's supposed to be around 1.5 million asteroids in the main belt that are 1km or bigger, and ~25M that are 100m+... plus the Kuiper belt, scattered disc, and Oort cloud. I'm sure there are plenty of 'unclaimed' places that are chock-full of would-be claimers, but there still seems to be a good deal of room for someone to stretch their elbows and become a new brinker...
ssfsx17 wrote:
Comet Express ... So, how do you defend against such an attack?
Hm... not order your janitor-bots from elsewhere when you can nanofab them yourself?
Thank you for your time,
valen valen's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
ssfsx17 wrote:
((This is based on something my players have actually planned before, although they did not execute it)) So, how do you defend against such an attack?
Why wouldn't your customs service detect this during inspection of incoming cargo?
sjmcc13 sjmcc13's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
valen][quote=ssfsx17 wrote:
Why wouldn't your customs service detect this during inspection of incoming cargo?
because they have been bribed/blackmailed into looking the other way, are incompetent or you got lucky and they did not notice. Though hidden compartments are a method used to smuggle contraband, so the weapons could potentially get through. Really I would say it would be easier to smuggle in an unrestricted Fabber/DCM (made to look like it is a restricted model) and materials then make the weapons after getting through security.
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Thought experiment: building a safe hab
With the right skills, you have most likely deadly weapons within an arm's reach *right now*. The real trick is to get your agent egos in and sleeve them in morphs you know the habitat cannot control. Giving them some extra weapons is a bonus, but not always necessary. Batteries for railguns and similar high energy weapons are likely easy to detect. Similar for explosives. But you can do surprising things with nanoclockwork springs, digital capacitors or poisons. Weapons might be assembled out of apparently innocuous parts, like sheets of diamond that have pre-stressed flaws. Bioweapons might be stored in minuscule compartments. Poisons might become poisons only after encountering another chemical. Searching ever little nook and cranny is hard and boring, and if everything looks right the customs person and her muse will not look to hard. So they miss that the cell-foam holding the casemorph has a tiny amount of protean nanoswarm in it and if combined with strongly acidic water (like the one found in life support tank B7) it will release cyanide gas. The diamond laminate box can be disassembled into a wide array of knives and some guns. The casemorph is an entirely standard model, it is just that the material used in one arm element is conductive and allows the diamond gun to connect the nuclear battery powering the morph - or to electrocute somebody. The reserve lubricant bottle that comes with the morph has a single bubble at the bottom containing a very deadly pathogen. And the default AI of the morph happens to have a whole suite of infiltration and sabotage exploits hidden in its Feng Shui Cleaning library.
Extropian