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Can nanofabricators self-replicate?

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Sun, 2011-02-27 05:16
#1
DataPacRat DataPacRat's picture
Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Can a nanofabricator of whatever sort, especially a desktop cornucopia, with the right blueprints be used to build a copy of itself?
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Sun, 2011-02-27 10:32
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Can the new one fit inside the existing one?
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Sun, 2011-02-27 10:54
TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Yerameyahu wrote:
Can the new one fit inside the existing one?
Exactly the point. You can only create a nanofabricator that is of lesser size then the one your creating OR create the parts for a nanofabricator and put them together (ie some assembly required).
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Sun, 2011-02-27 11:03
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Presumably, that assembly wouldn't be the easies/fastest thing, unless you did have a special fab recipe for an easy-assembly version (which could exist). Apart from this size problem, yes, you can fab basically anything. :)
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Sun, 2011-02-27 11:28
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
TBRMInsanity wrote:
Yerameyahu wrote:
Can the new one fit inside the existing one?
Exactly the point. You can only create a nanofabricator that is of lesser size then the one your creating OR create the parts for a nanofabricator and put them together (ie some assembly required).
Or, the first nanofabricator produces the components, activates the second one, and the second one assembles itself.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 11:36
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
That seems pretty iffy, and overcomplicated. :) Not impossible, of course, but a sort of 'smart swarm' device (whether nano or macro) would be significantly more complex and expensive than the comparatively simple device we're hoping to end up with.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 12:04
ssfsx17 ssfsx17's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Just make the nanofabricator a folding-up sort of design. Done.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 12:23
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Or maybe it's a tiny pea-sized unit that extends a magic glowing field to fab things inside. :) Per the book, CM output either fits inside the device (without mention of transformers), or could require a Hardware assembly test. In addition, "The smallest CMs are desk-sized cubes approximately half a meter on a side with a volume of at least 40 liters," again without mention of transformers.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 12:32
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Yerameyahu wrote:
That seems pretty iffy, and overcomplicated. :) Not impossible, of course, but a sort of 'smart swarm' device (whether nano or macro) would be significantly more complex and expensive than the comparatively simple device we're hoping to end up with.
I disagree. Assembly would require minimal extra complexity in comparison to the nano-based structure of the final design. This is especially true if the machine has moving parts... these larger moving parts might shift the mass of the parts into position to be assembled, at which point the integral swarm that already assembles the newly nanofabricated components could be used to finalize the assembly process. Hell, my guess is that nanofabricators already have some sort of manipulation arm as-is, used for rotating and shifting parts during fabrication.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2011-02-27 12:39
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Yerameyahu wrote:
Or maybe it's a tiny pea-sized unit that extends a magic glowing field to fab things inside. :) Per the book, CM output either fits inside the device (without mention of transformers), or could require a Hardware assembly test. In addition, "The smallest CMs are desk-sized cubes approximately half a meter on a side with a volume of at least 40 liters," again without mention of transformers.
Actually, a fold-out design wouldn't necessarily be a transforming device. It could be as simplistic as a fold-out chair. The largest majority of a nanofabricator is the hollow internals where objects are assembled, it could be plausible that a fold-up nanofabricator designed to compact itself and eliminate that hollow could be produced in an identical nanofabricator. Of course, it would require a manual fold-out before it could be used.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2011-02-27 13:31
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
It is entirely possible for a box-like device to manufacture an exact copy of itself if it is allowed to extrude the copy. Think of a 1x4x9 box, where the 4x9 side is the place where the product is extruded. There is plenty of space to extrude a similar box, assuming it is oriented with the long side outwards (since only a 1x4 rectangle has to fit on the 4x9 side). In practice this is likely rarely done both by design and for practical reasons. Most CMs are not intended to replicate, and it is easier to build things in controlled high vaccum/inert liquid environments rather than deal with extrusion. But I can imagine this kind of replicators existing in the outer system. Probably prone to damage due to imperfect sealing, but sometimes worth it.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 13:54
root root's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
root@Can nanofabricators self-replicate? [hr]
DataPacRat wrote:
Can a nanofabricator of whatever sort, especially a desktop cornucopia, with the right blueprints be used to build a copy of itself?
Economics shift once this is possible, so that is sort of the point. Here is a current attempt to make something like that, but it doesn't work at the nano level. Replicating Rapid Prototyper.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 16:26
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Again, I explicitly said it wasn't impossible. It's just manifestly more complex and/or less robust, or in other ways inferior (time, assembly, cost, rarity, etc.). Decivre, that's transforming. My point was that the book doesn't mention it, chairlike or otherwise. Not that it's impossible, merely that it's not mentioned in a sentence that does mention 'the smallest'.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 16:34
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Yerameyahu wrote:
Again, I explicitly said it wasn't impossible. It's just manifestly more complex and/or less robust, or in other ways inferior (time, assembly, cost, rarity, etc.). Decivre, that's transforming. My point was that the book doesn't mention it, chairlike or otherwise. Not that it's impossible, merely that it's not mentioned in a sentence that does mention 'the smallest'.
Considering how robust the setting is, you could probably write volumes upon volumes of books on things that aren't mentioned in the core book. In fact, two books have already been written. Self-replication likely wasn't referenced because it's probably a non-topic. As has been already mentioned, even without any sort of reshaping structure, individual components with minimal assembly could definitely be produced. I only brought up the possibility of self-restructuring objects (already plausible in the setting: see smart materials) and objects which can be folded because they bring up plausible secondary alternatives to manual assembly. As another note, the book does not mention foldable weaponry, but it should be implied that these would exist in EP... after all, they already exist today. Also, there are a multitude of potential models of any given type of fabricator. While someone with a home in the inner system might not have a foldable fabber in their home (why would they when they have a home to live in?), someone living a nomadic lifestyle in the outer system would have every reason to get their hands on a foldable model.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2011-02-27 16:40
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Are you arguing with me, or what? None of that is in conflict with what I said. :) I guess we agree.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 17:04
DataPacRat DataPacRat's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Decivre wrote:
Actually, a fold-out design wouldn't necessarily be a transforming device. It could be as simplistic as a fold-out chair. The largest majority of a nanofabricator is the hollow internals where objects are assembled, it could be plausible that a fold-up nanofabricator designed to compact itself and eliminate that hollow could be produced in an identical nanofabricator. Of course, it would require a manual fold-out before it could be used.
If the biggest part of a nanofab is the manufacturing tank, and that can be built in a folded state... then it seems entirely possible for a given nanofab to build a /bigger/ nanofab, which could build one bigger still, up to full industrial capacity. It may take a while, but as long as a seed nanofab of the right size, and the appropriate blueprints, are available, it could be an entirely viable way to turn a given orbiting mass into a colony.
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Thank you for your time,
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Sun, 2011-02-27 17:36
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
DataPacRat wrote:
If the biggest part of a nanofab is the manufacturing tank, and that can be built in a folded state... then it seems entirely possible for a given nanofab to build a /bigger/ nanofab, which could build one bigger still, up to full industrial capacity. It may take a while, but as long as a seed nanofab of the right size, and the appropriate blueprints, are available, it could be an entirely viable way to turn a given orbiting mass into a colony.
Very true, though as Arenamontanus already mentioned, a nanofabricator designed to create in the vacuum of space does not need to be enclosed at all, and can essentially produce openly. Colony nanofabs are likely just solar-powered hives that fabricate entire sections external to itself. It's even possible that the hives fabricate themselves to the hull of the habitat, and serve the purpose of maintenance long after the habitat is produced. On that thought, space yards are likely just massive open frames in space with large networks of co-operating nanohives. I even imagine that some of those hives are on large arms which can extend into the ship hull, allowing the interior to start fabrication before the exterior is even finished.
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Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]
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Sun, 2011-02-27 17:47
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Why not just give a nanofabber external arms to assemble the pieces afterwards? This gives me the hilarious thought of evolving nanofabbers. Transhumans accidentally let one loose on a world, come back a few million years later and find that accumulated errors in copying have led to an incredible diversity of nano-fabricators, including the large and predatory Spider Fabber, which maneuvers on eight modified construction arms and strips other fabbers down for components. A few billion years later and highly evolved F. sapiens discuss their evolutionary origins and endure long arguments over the possibility of intelligent design.
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Sun, 2011-02-27 23:03
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
"by the new Cornucopia Machine from Ikea" the trick is, it's actually a plot to detect seed AI! if someone manages to actually assemble it, he can't be human, or even a normal AGI!
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Sun, 2011-02-27 23:51
Lord High Munchkin Lord High Munchkin's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
However, at a certain point it actually becomes more sensible to have a large, automated factory chugging out vast quantities of mass-produced items built with largely non-nano technology. For example, an automatic sheet-metal press (mill, extruder, or whatever) and a bunch of industrial machines for other processes is a lot quicker than building everything needed for habitat dome ribs, at the nano-scale.
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Mon, 2011-02-28 19:38
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Lord High Munchkin wrote:
However, at a certain point it actually becomes more sensible to have a large, automated factory chugging out vast quantities of mass-produced items built with largely non-nano technology. For example, an automatic sheet-metal press (mill, extruder, or whatever) and a bunch of industrial machines for other processes is a lot quicker than building everything needed for habitat dome ribs, at the nano-scale.
That actually depends. If you are willing to use inferior materials created with older processes, then yes... classic methods of manufacture are likely better. However, nanoscale manufacture allows for superior materials superior in potentially every way to anything produced by standard means. All imperfections and flaws can be eliminated on the nanomolecular scale. This can also make for interesting new materials not possible via classical methods: graphene-layered steel, solid diamond casings and new crystalline structures being the first to come to mind.
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Mon, 2011-02-28 22:02
Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
not just that, but nanoscale material tend to act like living tissue. when pierced it heals, sealing the hole. I believe it's the Hamilton Cylinder that works on that principle, right? the station is woven and the hull acts like a solid skin something I'm wondering what does a nanofab look like, exactly?
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Mon, 2011-02-28 22:56
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
For actual construction, don't they just unleash a swarm or something? :)
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Tue, 2011-03-01 03:19
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Quincey Forder wrote:
not just that, but nanoscale material tend to act like living tissue. when pierced it heals, sealing the hole. I believe it's the Hamilton Cylinder that works on that principle, right? the station is woven and the hull acts like a solid skin something I'm wondering what does a nanofab look like, exactly?
Smart materials, yes. Not all materials will have these qualities. I think that habitats will likely be maintained by external hive systems, rather than being completely built out of smart materials. Smart materials simply have too high a power requirement to build an entire habitat out of it.
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Tue, 2011-03-01 13:55
Decimator Decimator's picture
Re: Can nanofabricators self-replicate?
Any cornucopia machine can build copies of itself. I was playing with this idea for an infomorph unauthorized entry specialist. Here's how it works: any nanofabber can build nanoswarm hives(the guy is an expert hacker). So what he'd do is modify certain designs in the nanofabber to incorporate a protean nanoswarm hive. After someone creates an object with the nanofabber and leaves the fabber room(I'd expect all fabber rooms to have guardian nanoswarms and a security system, anything less would just be moronic), he can order the hive to create whatever he needs, like a nanofabber. If the nanofabber isn't connected to the mesh, he'll need to break into a robot or morph to get access, but all that does is add a step. After all this is complete, he can proceed with whatever his objective was.
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