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What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?

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nikleonard nikleonard's picture
What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?. Obviously Heavy armor (it says in the description that makes your character bulky and noticeable) is not concealable, but Light Armor? Pneumatic Limbs? additional movement systems (folded?), Fractal Digits (ghost in the shell style)? A concealed weapon mount? and in that case, what could be the maximum size of a concealed weapon? (I guess heavy pistol in the arm as maximum, maybe some bigger in one's leg).
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Well, because nobody offered a possible answer, I will try one: Any enhancement that are not stated to have a visible external modification of appeareance, may be covered by Synth Skin. That makes all internal mods (including light armor but not heavy) and concealed weapons to the size of a pistol in an arm (or sightly bigger in a leg or torso) fair game. I will rule out any aditional movement systems because, in general, alternative movement systems require a specific morph shape and their size will not allow concealment. Some mods like Pneumatic Limbs or "Muscle" enhancement will make the limbs more wide or muscular in shape but still appearing biological. Any concealed item that are used (weapons or concealed items) will rip the Synthskin (revealing the synth or cybernetic limb nature) but medichines (or a sucessful application of repair spray) will repair the damage in little time (the equivalent of one point of damage, but only as cosmetic damage). I will allow fractal digits but a careful examination of the hands will reveal a lot of microfractures (can pass as a nanoware mod anyways). Any other suggestions?
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
I might go so far as to say that any and all robotic enhancements will make a synthmorph too noticeable to be covered by synthetic masking. Even in the case of light armor, you are actually talking about an addition of armor beyond what's already there; synthmorphs all already have some degree of armor. Beyond that, I would only stipulate that cyberware parts that explicitly state that they cannot be masked are off-limits (New Limb Plus). Everything else is fair game. That said, it's not impossible to have partial synthetic masking. Just because your synthmorph has a pneumatic arm doesn't mean that the rest of your body can't be masked if you feel like it. I'd imagine that this is actually a common affair, especially with synthmorphs who are in such occupations as diplomacy; it helps to have a friendly face, even if that's the only part of you that isn't machine-like.
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nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Decivre wrote:
I might go so far as to say that any and all robotic enhancements will make a synthmorph too noticeable to be covered by synthetic masking. Even in the case of light armor, you are actually talking about an addition of armor beyond what's already there; synthmorphs all already have some degree of armor.
Off-the-shelve Synth Synthmorph or Cybernetic Limbs are made with standard, unexpensive parts and materials. In that lieu, replacing the standard cheap armor with military grade alloys will enhance the internal armor, and replacing the unexpensive standard servos-myomers with top-of-the-line magnetohydraulic-myomer systems (pneumatic limbs and synth version of enhanced "muscles") will have a impact comparable of enhancing a biomorph muscles or adding nanoweave armor, but oviously, there are some limits. I think morphs, as shown in the manual, are "basic packages" and, except for state-of-the-art morphs like the Ghost or the Reaper, they include only the basics. By example, the Steel Morph, showcased in Sunward, has more armor and more stat bonuses reflecting a better building quality. With the level of nanotecnology available in Eclipse Phase, one can expect this kind of upgrades to be completely feasible in a reasonable size, but always one will have the issue of price (and availability).
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
nikleonard wrote:
Off-the-shelve Synth Synthmorph or Cybernetic Limbs are made with standard, unexpensive parts and materials. In that lieu, replacing the standard cheap armor with military grade alloys will enhance the internal armor, and replacing the unexpensive standard servos-myomers with top-of-the-line magnetohydraulic-myomer systems (pneumatic limbs and synth version of enhanced "muscles") will have a impact comparable of enhancing a biomorph muscles or adding nanoweave armor, but oviously, there are some limits. I think morphs, as shown in the manual, are "basic packages" and, except for state-of-the-art morphs like the Ghost or the Reaper, they include only the basics. By example, the Steel Morph, showcased in Sunward, has more armor and more stat bonuses reflecting a better building quality. With the level of nanotecnology available in Eclipse Phase, one can expect this kind of upgrades to be completely feasible in a reasonable size, but always one will have the issue of price (and availability).
I would agree that the morphs in the books are the "basic packages", but I don't think that necessarily denotes that they are cheap in any real way. In fact, every single biomorph is quite expensive. Bodies as a whole are a big investment. The big reason I state that robotic enhancements would be the biggest hurdle with synthetic masks is because of the obviously non-human traits that many of them have. Those robotic modifications that can be concealed might be able to pass muster (fractal digits, hidden compartment, concealed weapon mount, magnetic system), but a good portion of them most certainly cannot (how do you hide pneumatic limbs without obstructing the piston assembly? how to you realistically hide telescopic limbs without tearing your artificial flesh everytime they extend?). For the most part, the only synths I would even allow to have synthetic masking would be the most organic ones. Of the core book, I'd only allow the synth, dragonfly and [i]maybe[/i] the slitheroid and swarmanoid (as beetles) to have a synthetic mask. Of Sunward, only the steel morph (and not the liquid silver model). By large though, I'd say that most shells are not going to be compatible.
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nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Respecting Pneumatic limbs, well, maybe you are overestimating the size of the piston itself (or I'm underestimating the size) A Hydraulic Piston doesn't need to be that big (1500 pounds of force are not a really big deal for a pneumatic device), and the compressor can be hidden inside the leg, the only visible part will be the rod connecting the upper and lower parts of the leg and that will pass as tendons or concealed inside the knee (especially considering the state of materials technology available in Eclipse Phase), and if it was that big that cannot be concealed, probably will be stated in the description (Like heavy armor). A good rule of thumb may be "Only upgrades that not alter significantly the shape/size of a morph can be disguised" (ruling out telescopic limbs and the sort), and I Agree that the only morphs that can use Synth Skin has to be morphs that are reasonably similar to a living organic being (and I will rule out the Slitheroid and Dragonfly because I Don't think passing as an uplifted snake or a big mutant insect will be very useful).
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
nikleonard wrote:
Respecting Pneumatic limbs, well, maybe you are overestimating the size of the piston itself (or I'm underestimating the size) A Hydraulic Piston doesn't need to be that big (1500 pounds of force are not a really big deal for a pneumatic device), and the compressor can be hidden inside the leg, the only visible part will be the rod connecting the upper and lower parts of the leg and that will pass as tendons or concealed inside the knee (especially considering the state of materials technology available in Eclipse Phase), and if it was that big that cannot be concealed, probably will be stated in the description (Like heavy armor). A good rule of thumb may be "Only upgrades that not alter significantly the shape/size of a morph can be disguised" (ruling out telescopic limbs and the sort), and I Agree that the only morphs that can use Synth Skin has to be morphs that are reasonably similar to a living organic being (and I will rule out the Slitheroid and Dragonfly because I Don't think passing as an uplifted snake or a big mutant insect will be very useful).
It isn't a hydraulic piston, but a pneumatic one. The difference is dramatic in overall power, with hydraulic systems generally being more powerful. Plus, a pneumatic system requires an air intake, which I would guess would have to be visible (at least if it's going to operate with any real efficiency). Lastly, the advantage of pneumatic limbs would be that they can expand and contract to provide cushioning or pushing force (this is why they provide a damage and freerunning bonus). There's no real way for limbs to contract and expand while still maintaining a biological profile.
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nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Decivre wrote:
It isn't a hydraulic piston, but a pneumatic one. The difference is dramatic in overall power, with hydraulic systems generally being more powerful. Plus, a pneumatic system requires an air intake, which I would guess would have to be visible (at least if it's going to operate with any real efficiency). Lastly, the advantage of pneumatic limbs would be that they can expand and contract to provide cushioning or pushing force (this is why they provide a damage and freerunning bonus). There's no real way for limbs to contract and expand while still maintaining a biological profile.
I think the "Pneumatic Limbs" mod described in the manual can't be a Pneumatic Air compressor - Cylinder system, because they will not work in Vacuum or thin atmospheres (because the air intake problem issued by you), and SynthMorphs need to be capable to work in vacuum or low atmospheric pressures. I'm thinking more in a Hydraulic system, Linear motor system or a sealed Pneumatic System, and the amortiguation effect described by you can be integrated in the skeleton structure. When the system is not in operation, it will be rigid, but when it operates, it expands or compresses (limited to the level of stretch resistance of Synth Skin). When is not in use, it will be inconspicious, but when used, well, it will be notorious as a concealed weapon popping out. As a concealed weapon or Fractal Digits, the mod doesn't need to have a biological profile when they are in use (jumping 2+ meters or smashing a wall with a punch will ruin your masquerade anyways), but when they are not in use.
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
nikleonard wrote:
I think the "Pneumatic Limbs" mod described in the manual can't be a Pneumatic Air compressor - Cylinder system, because they will not work in Vacuum or thin atmospheres (because the air intake problem issued by you), and SynthMorphs need to be capable to work in vacuum or low atmospheric pressures. I'm thinking more in a Hydraulic system, Magneto-Hydraulic system or a sealed Pneumatic System, and the amortiguation effect described by you can be integrated in the skeleton structure. When the system is not in operation, it will be rigid, but when it operates, it expands or compresses (limited to the level of stretch resistance of Synth Skin). When is not in use, it will be inconspicious, but when used, well, it will be notorious as a concealed weapon popping out.
Just because a pneumatic system has a sealed air reserve does not mean that it doesn't have an intake. The intake provides one significant advantage for pneumatic systems that a hydraulic system does not have: the ability to be low-maintenance. If a hydraulic system gets a leak, then simply repairing the leak isn't going to help... one needs to get more hydraulic fluid to get the system back up and running. A pneumatic system, however, can simply take in surrounding air (if present). Furthermore, a pneumatic system can bleed air easily if the pressure gets too high, while a hydraulic system is not that simple. One has to ask, though: why would you really need a pneumatic system if you are in vacuum anyways? The main advantage of pneumatic limbs is that it allows the user to leap farther and absorb the impact of landing... neither of which is really too necessary in zero gravity.
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nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Decivre wrote:
One has to ask, though: why would you really need a pneumatic system if you are in vacuum anyways? The main advantage of pneumatic limbs is that it allows the user to leap farther and absorb the impact of landing... neither of which is really too necessary in zero gravity.
It's a quite stupid answer but... +1D10 unarmed combat damage. And there are zones in habitats with gravity but without atmosphere or very thin atmosphere (half terraformed habitats, Depresurized zones of cylinders, and such), and we are talking about a SynthMorph that can be used in Zero G / Vacuum, or inside a presurized habitat with gravity (like the arachnoid, that have Pneumatic Limbs by default). In the low-maintenance topic, well, remember we are in Eclipse Phase, not our actual world. The level of technology are a hundred or more years ahead of our technological level, especially in the area of nanotechnology. A Pneumatic or Hydraulic system can be easily serviced with a little application of repair spray, and we are talking about sealed systems that not leak, except when they are damaged or ended their service life. And with medichines, one can have a self-servicing system.
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
nikleonard wrote:
It's a quite stupid answer but... +1D10 unarmed combat damage. And there are zones in habitats with gravity but without atmosphere or very thin atmosphere (half terraformed habitats, Depresurized zones of cylinders, and such), and we are talking about a SynthMorph that can be used in Zero G / Vacuum, or inside a presurized habitat with gravity (like the arachnoid, that have Pneumatic Limbs by default). In the low-maintenance topic, well, remember we are in Eclipse Phase, not our actual world. The level of technology are a hundred or more years ahead of our technological level, especially in the area of nanotechnology. A Pneumatic or Hydraulic system can be easily serviced with a little application of repair spray, and we are talking about sealed systems that not leak, except when they are damaged or ended their service life. And with medichines, one can have a self-servicing system.
But again, such a system would serve little purpose in vacuum. A hydraulic system might, but I'd guess that most cyberlimb systems already implement hydraulics for tensile application. A pneumatic system would largely benefit a user that is in a scenario involving gravity, where they can make use of the benefits it would provide in a freerunning scenario (it allows you to leap farther, run faster, and absorb the impact of greater falls). As for hydraulic maintenance, there is one thing that neither repair spray nor medichines could probably service with an industrial-strength hydraulic system, and that's fluid loss. You're talking about the need for several ounces of matter to be added to the body of a synthmorph... which is a different issue from simply melding and altering damaged matter that's already present to a repaired state. The advantage is that a pneumatic system is self-filling in a proper atmosphere; there's no need to find a fluid source. A hydraulic system is not. No matter how advanced hydraulic systems may get, or how advanced maintenance systems may be, the acquisition of necessary mass is going to be a permanent advantage of hydraulic systems.
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King Shere King Shere's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Why would someone flash-suppress a plasma thrower? Perhaps its a Seller/manufacturer that doesn't want to turn down a rich eccentric customer. http://www.eclipsephase.com/so-how-do-you-flash-suppress-plasma-thrower I would think that all robotic enhancements could be covered by synth skin, at least "temporarily". Despite how ugly or impractical it is. People have different aesthetics. I imagine one of the main reasons for doing it, when it works - would be to avert social stigma & stealth. Such coating could perhaps make the morph look pleasing and normal, at least until the robotic enhancements is needed or when they go beyond the coatings tolerance. some coating could perhaps heal/regenerate or be repaired, in such scenarios .
nikleonard nikleonard's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
And the issue of Hydraulic fluid loss is fixed by adding hydraulic fluid. Any fabber can do hydraulic fluid easily.
Playing Eclipse Phase the "Chilean Way"...
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
King Shere wrote:
Why would someone flash-suppress a plasma thrower? Perhaps its a Seller/manufacturer that doesn't want to turn down a rich eccentric customer. http://www.eclipsephase.com/so-how-do-you-flash-suppress-plasma-thrower I would think that all robotic enhancements could be covered by synth skin, at least "temporarily". Despite how ugly or impractical it is. People have different aesthetics. I imagine one of the main reasons for doing it, when it works - would be to avert social stigma & stealth. Such coating could perhaps make the morph look pleasing and normal, at least until the robotic enhancements is needed or when they go beyond the coatings tolerance. some coating could perhaps heal/regenerate or be repaired, in such scenarios .
I think the basic premise behind the synthetic mask product is not just to make something look biological, but to actually make it fool people. I'm sure that those who have very alien synthmorph designs might have schemes that look somewhat biological in nature, but it's different from the fairly expensive synthetic mask modification.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
nikleonard wrote:
And the issue of Hydraulic fluid loss is fixed by adding hydraulic fluid. Any fabber can do hydraulic fluid easily.
Which still makes it far more difficult to maintain than a pneumatic system, which is capable of simply refilling on the ambient atmosphere of any given environment. An atmosphere is a far easier thing to find than a fabber.
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Unity Unity's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
I would argue that the enhancement that permits better jumping capability is capable of being covered by a synthetic mask for the sole purpose of being able to adequately portray Motoko Kusanagi.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Unity wrote:
I would argue that the enhancement that permits better jumping capability is capable of being covered by a synthetic mask for the sole purpose of being able to adequately portray Motoko Kusanagi.
I don't know if she actually has pneumatic limbs, though. She just seems to have a reinforced chassis. Plus, synths in Ghost in the Shell tend to be a bit more durable and capable than those of Eclipse Phase.
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The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Decivre wrote:
Plus, synths in Ghost in the Shell tend to be a bit more durable and capable than those of Eclipse Phase.
To be fair, many of the synths in GitS are combat models, if not outright military issue. If I recall correctly we do not see many civilian models (mostly because the series is not focused on civilians).
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
King Shere wrote:
I would think that all robotic enhancements could be covered by synth skin, at least "temporarily". Despite how ugly or impractical it is. People have different aesthetics.
As well as different basic maintenance budgets. What you describe reminds me of the boomers from [u]Bubblegum Crisis[/u] - collapsible smart metal components that cannot function optimally unless the unit tears out of its synthskin and expands them.
NX NX's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Decivre wrote:
For the most part, the only synths I would even allow to have synthetic masking would be the most organic ones. Of the core book, I'd only allow the synth, dragonfly and [i]maybe[/i] the slitheroid and swarmanoid (as beetles) to have a synthetic mask. Of Sunward, only the steel morph (and not the liquid silver model). By large though, I'd say that most shells are not going to be compatible.
nikleonard wrote:
A good rule of thumb may be "Only upgrades that not alter significantly the shape/size of a morph can be disguised" (ruling out telescopic limbs and the sort), and I Agree that the only morphs that can use Synth Skin has to be morphs that are reasonably similar to a living organic being (and I will rule out the Slitheroid and Dragonfly because I Don't think passing as an uplifted snake or a big mutant insect will be very useful).
My idea for an upcoming game is for a swarmanoid ['the swarm can “meld” together into a roughly child-sized shape' EC p145] to use synthetic mask to pose as a Neotenic 'escort'. I'd love the character to masquerade as a Neotenic to get into certain places, shed the skin to snoop around, then put back on the skin once the mission's complete. I'm wondering exactly how synthetic masking works. Is it like a suit of skin that can be put on and taken off? Would the swarmanoid be able to manipulate the synthetic mask to take it off and out it on? Maybe the swarm can just fly or crawl in and out of the skin's natural orifices, negating a need to grab or lift or hold the skin. Would the swarmanoid be able to manipulate objects like a 'real' person while masked? Since a masked synth can "cry, spit, have sex, and will even bleed if cut" [EC 311], can a swarmanoid overcome its inability to manipulate most objects by being masked? As always, I'll discuss with my DM [who'll probably say yes and find some fiendish way to screw me over :) ], but I wanted to hear what y'all think.
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Well it specifically states a swarmanoid can't manipulate objects because it lacks the strength so a no to that. The skin is merely a cover, it doesn't give you any way to move things. The crying, bleeding, and all that should still work but think about how it will look. A child sized person moving inhumanely as a cloud of bug like robots tries to get it to move. I think any sane GM would give you massive penalties to just about any test to blend in, move around, or even notice things.
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Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Wow, that's something right out of a horror film... An awkwardly shambling, twitching child collapsing like an emptying balloon as a swarm of metal insects surge from their eyes and mouth. A synthetic mask can, but doesn't necessarily need to, look perfect. They can look more or less complete as needed, so, for example, they could have slits in their skin to allow a concealed weapon mount to extend, or exposed joints to allow hands to extend and such. As long as their overall shape and, most importantly, face don't deviate far from human, they still stay out of the uncanny valley.
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
Wow, that's something right out of a horror film... An awkwardly shambling, twitching child collapsing like an emptying balloon as a swarm of metal insects surge from their eyes and mouth.
This, it needs to be used. I may even have an enemy NPC with a specialized synthetic skin just for this purpose.
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NX NX's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
There must be some way to make my idea work for a PC. :(
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
You could probably fit the swarm in something else. A Servitor bot perhaps with a specialized smuggling compartment.
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NX NX's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Good idea. He can definitely get into restricted places as a janitor or something. :) Though I'd have to lose the uncomfortable underage sex angle... :(
Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
And I'm sure someone will thank you for it lol.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Yeah, I would suggest a stripped-down version of another morph as your harder physical mask. One idea might be to have a modified Synth morph (the one called synth... very confusing) designed to have a large hollow, synthetically masked to look like an obese man.
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Wyldknight Wyldknight's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
So you have a fat guy vomiting metal insects? That's pleasant.
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Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Wyldknight wrote:
So you have a fat guy vomiting metal insects? That's pleasant.
It doesn't have to be that gruesome. They can climb out from multiple seams throughout his body, or his stomach can simply open up and allow them to pour out while no one is looking. Of course, exploding the shell and releasing the swarmanoid is a dramatic method that might catch one's pursuers offguard, giving you an added advantage during your escape (should you be caught).
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Lord High Munchkin Lord High Munchkin's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
How about ripping off the shirt, clawing at the abdomen until... hoards of little metal critters pour out onto the floor and scarper away. The remaining shell could also have a residual programming and power source to stagger lurchingly towards the pursuers moaning "Braaains!"
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
Lord High Munchkin wrote:
How about ripping off the shirt, clawing at the abdomen until... hoards of little metal critters pour out onto the floor and scarper away. The remaining shell could also have a residual programming and power source to stagger lurchingly towards the pursuers moaning "Braaains!"
I am very much reminded of the shenanigans occurring in the 2006 Schlocktoberfest arc of Schlock mercenary... http://www.schlockmercenary.com:8080/2007-10-14 Of course, by now plenty of people have seen the Alien schtick. The creative swarmanoid prankster needs to work a bit for its scares. Pretending to be a TITAN nanoswarm is probably a bit too much (too early after the fall, about as fun as 911 jokes to an American)... but that is what GM use of the "Real World Naivite" trait comes in ;-)
Extropian
Tango Tango's picture
Re: What robotic enhancements will not be covered by Synth Skin?
I don't see consealing extra gear inside your morph as a problem if it's just dimensions we're talking about. You can always take away muscle & skeletal structures for other stuff (and criple your morph to a degree), but if its a morph with organic skin, accessing/using these items might be a bit problematic, depending on the system. Keeping it hidden from sensors is another story. x-ray, chem sniffers (if you happen to store flamethrower-gas inside you) or weighting of your morph and then comparing the results to a factory spec'd model should rise some flags. Also, depending on the size/weight/location of the enhancement, it might affect the morph's walk sycle and mannerisms and thus be detectable with kinetics. To make it truly concealed, the enhancement would propably be very cleverly designed to look some other component in the morph and actually work as the mimiced component to some degree. Oh and hi, EP forum :D
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