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One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)

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Tue, 2011-02-08 23:06
#1
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
So I was thinking, given our recent thread about pair-bonding in the transhuman future, what sort of relationships might develop. Certainly, given how unusual human relationships can be by themselves, it becomes a whole new kettle of chips when mercurials are thrown into the mix. How do they relate? How do their instinctual emotional reactions clash/mesh? How do their natural social groupings affect their relationships? How do various cultures perceive them? All these questions and more beg asking in regards to transhuman/Uplift/AGI relations. I'm not just talking about romantic relationships, of course, but those are certainly one of the more interesting to discuss, mainly because they're so easily made sticky and unusual. Just off the top of my head, I throw out the example of a transhuman forming a relationship with an Uplift lion/ess. The Uplift leonid would be driven by instincts that transhumans do not have, and would lack some that transhumans have. Some possible examples include: -The expectation of polygyny (if male) or that their mate fights off any competition (if female). It's easy to imagine a male lion Uplift growing very confused when a woman expresses upset feelings at his apparent infidelity yet is unable to fathom what he did wrong, and just as similarly easy to imagine a lioness wondering why, if her mate was uncomfortable with her showing so much interest in another male, he simply didn't fight the male until he backed off (and, while she might accept an excuse about not wanting to go to jail and/or differing norms, still feel disappointed). -Threatening or apathetic disposition towards offspring from other partners. Lion males kill cubs produced by other males that are below a certain age and, while that behaviour may not be passed on through sentience, the instinct may remain. -Enormous aesthetic differences in gift-giving and intimate behaviours. Items that might seem particularly enticing to an Uplift, perhaps because of scent (a sense they have that is far more potent than most transhumans'), would seem unattractive to an unmodified or even a modified transhuman, and that's just the simplest of thoughts there. The rest, you can use your imagination for. And that's just a few examples from one kind of interspecies relationship. So, what're people's opinions on transhuman/mercurial relationships? Has anyone pondered this subject before?
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Tue, 2011-02-08 23:41
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Uplifts aren't just 'smart animals', right? Their minds are intentionally human-shaped, to the point that they're more like 'something'-people? Obviously this is a major aspect of the setting, so I'm not telling, I'm asking: how much of the things you suggest might simply be gone in an Uplift? The other issue you raise is instinct versus culture, and traditionally (that is, in literature, etc.) you have less instinct the more conscious and rational you are. I have no idea if that's scientifically true, but worth considering. Uplift Neanderthals probably exhibit nothing at all of an 'innate' culture (of the kind in your examples), while maybe Uplift avians do?
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Wed, 2011-02-09 02:35
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Had the same talk with a player of mine yesterday. She seemed to expect that uplifts behave like fantasy animal-people. Well, they don't. Simply as that. They can, and Mercurials who seek a culture of their own certainly will, but i can see the majority of the systems uplift population just living regular lifes without compulsive buttsniffing. That said, we also agreed on the subject of human instincts. We still have them and our (read: Western, dunno if this can be applied to Asian cultures) developed RL cultures reflect those perfectly (with some exceptions). We are still animals and are just high on the whole "reasonable thinking" idea some greek dudes fanwanked about. So, in the end, the line between "sentience" and "instinct" becomes quite blurry and what you as a player do with your uplift is certainly up to you. And i bet, that notions as presented here are pretty neat examples of "positive racism". Or the thoughts some uplifts put into their social experiment cultural identity.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 07:03
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
The fun thing about Uplifts is that it's never really specified entirely how they're like transhumans. I'm not arguing for, as you put it, "compulsive buttsniffing", but rather that their behaviours and reactions, however culturally trained they might be, will be affected to some greater or lesser degree by instinct. Just off the bat, as a human example, the Western society you describe embraced, and, by and large, embraces life-long monogamy. However, with that also comes the acknowledgement that humans aren't monogamous creatures. In recent times, the cultural reinforcement of monogamy reached a fever pitch, and even a mistress was frowned upon, but humans have an instinctual drive to find more than one partner, for whatever reason. Even those that don't cheat find temptation now and then. I'm not saying that Uplifts wouldn't have culture override many of the actions they might otherwise take, but, given that they lack transhumanity's evolutionary history, they're still likely to have subtle instincts. As with my Neo-Lion example, a male lion might still have the same instinct to show distaste to his mate's children from other pairings, but he'll be unlikely to just pounce and try to kill them. I didn't intend for this to become a discussion on nature-vs-nurture in Uplifts, but that certainly is an interesting topic.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 09:51
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I hope i didn't sound too rough with the buttsniffing part. It was an exaggeration i often find in my favourite shadowrun board when the topic swing to shapeshifters and i think it sets a nice extreme (which i find idiotic, personally). Monogamy is a good example. Last thing i read is, that currently most believe that human males are polygamous while females are monogamous. Males want to spread their seed while the females want only their eggs to be fertilized. Which makes sense to me, but i am pretty sure that there are good arguments against these and that theory of anybody. Then there's always the exception to the rule. Your example with the male lion does remind me of a situation i encountered. Mother got a child, the father of the child left her. The mother remarried and the stepfather sired a new child and scorns the old child while the new child more or less gets everything. The wellknown "younger child gets more care" thing can be excluded here, if you trust my judgement. Compared to lions, i'd say that the difference to humans (and as a legitimization for your statement) is, that a lion has a more severe reaction to offspring not from himself. I'd say that the actual reaction depends very much on the culture the Neo-Lion lives in, how he was brought up etc. Instincts can be supressed (and then fun anomalies form), maybe he follows a religion that forbids that. Or he lives in a mercurial society where killing his offspring would be seen as reasonable and morally right?
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Wed, 2011-02-09 10:19
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I know these are merely examples, but I think anything related to reproduction, family, gender, etc. in EP is especially suspect and likely to be almost unrecognizably insane, Uplift or not. :)
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Wed, 2011-02-09 10:53
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
GreyBrother wrote:
Monogamy is a good example. Last thing i read is, that currently most believe that human males are polygamous while females are monogamous. Males want to spread their seed while the females want only their eggs to be fertilized. Which makes sense to me, but i am pretty sure that there are good arguments against these and that theory of anybody. Then there's always the exception to the rule.
Actually, we're wired to be serial monogamists; that's why we fall passionately in love for a year and a half to two years, and then the feelings wear off and the relationship often falls apart. And as for human intincts, well, [url=http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Cognitive_bias]here[/url] is a pretty good list of known human instincts. Also, [url=http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology]this[/url] for explaining a bit on how they arose.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 13:21
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
If the internet is going to eat a post, it should eat the post...
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Wed, 2011-02-09 11:48
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Some behaviors are due to brain architecture and morph traits. For instance, a canine-based ego in a morph with a strong sense of smell will naturally position their sense organs closer to the source of smell (oftentimes the anus), just like a visually-oriented ego in a morph with strong visual acuity will oftentimes focus those sense organs on items which are pleasing to that ego (such as breasts). Both behaviors are socially frowned upon, so rational egos will control those behaviors. Some behaviors are due to hormonal changes, and may not be supported by the morph, or may be intentionally controlled by hormonal treatments (for instance, maternal instinct, or paternal competitive instinct). Both categories of behavior can be controlled through psychosurgery, hormonal control, training, etc. Anti-social or dangerous behaviors most likely will be so controlled. I doubt your lion mate is going to start terrorizing nurseries (although his rep may suffer on the assumption that he will or secretly wants to). He could even be programmed (perhaps programming himself) to be especially nurturing. However, mercurials are still very muchso new (some moreso than others - how many lion uplifts are wandering around?) A lot of these issues are not understood. Your mercurial will still exhibit behaviors which seem confusing to their partner, or even confusing to themselves. Some of these behaviors are latent animal behaviors, some are unusual mutations on classic human behaviors, some resulting from translation error between animal and transhuman neural architectures, and some are simply anomalous, unexplained. It should definitely be interesting to watch.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 12:01
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
You know, there is an edit button for when you want to reword your posts. ;) I'm sort of dubious about the existence of lion uplifts generally; they aren't terribly smart to begin with so it seems more likely to me that they'd be smart animals or pods (or both, since you just need to install a cyberbrain and a puppet sock to turn a smart animal into a pod).
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Wed, 2011-02-09 13:21
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I'm sorry about that. The internet "ate" my first post, and it didn't appear when I refreshed the page.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 14:18
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I assume the Uplift lion is just an example, though, and the questions do apply to avians, neanderthals, octomorphs, etc. A factor here is that we're all humans, so it's hard to imagine any sapient that's not basically 'human', though we certainly keep trying. :) I'm having trouble imagining Uplifts as not-humanlike, but I don't want to make the mistake of pretending a dog-Uplift is a caricature like that guy from Tank Girl (in a kangaroo-human morph, no less). Right? :D
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Wed, 2011-02-09 15:04
Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Yes, thought about it quite a bit. }; ) Even if instincts are carried over whole or not uplifts might embrace certain behaviors as part of their culture, their distinctiveness. Western people shake hands, japanese people bow, why not canine buttsniffing as you put it? I would go so far as to say this doesn't only just apply to uplifts but exhumans as well. You're no longer human why would you give a lizard's butt about human culture, norms, and thinking? With my own dracomorphs and their society (which I swear I need to write soon, finally got a lull in my lab.) psychosurgery is not only encouraged, it's mandatory. If one expects human thinking especially when it comes to power dynamics you're in for a world of hurt. Exhuman means exactly that, no longer human. Hmm there's an idea for a character, culture designer, or perhaps a diplomat familiar with uplift or nonhuman cultures, protocols, and norms. I think that most players can wrap their minds around different morphs, or body types, but different thinking? That's more of a cognitive leap. Humanity tends to anthropomorphize and expect everything to conform to their own paradigm. Oh and nick012000 is correct. Serial monogamy is the norm. If you're interested in evolutionary psychology check out Sex: A Natural History by Joann Ellison Rodgers. It's a good introductory text.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 15:21
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
My point, though, is that those norms are largely (predominantly) artificial and voluntary, and Uplifts are human creations. If they sniff butts, it's because almost certainly because someone psychoprogrammed that, no?
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Wed, 2011-02-09 15:24
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Butt-sniffing is pretty generally considered anti-social. A population which insists on engaging in that behavior is going to suffer socially, politically and economically in the greater system compared to a population which doesn't. Over the long term, I think that behavior will naturally be driven to extinction.
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Wed, 2011-02-09 15:59
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I'm not prepared to guess anything about 'anti-social' in EP, but… yes. Either traits are instinctual (somehow), or they're programmed (directly, or the old-fashioned method of 'growing up'), but social pressure is certainly a factor. I think you're overstating the power a little, given what we know about sociology and politics—just look at the Jovians—, but sure. So, the OP question is 'how might human/nonhuman interactions be problematic?', yes? 'Natural' or intentional mismatches would definitely be an issue, though I still question how likely significant 'instinctual' conflicts would be.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 04:35
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
nick012000][quote=GreyBrother wrote:
And as for human intincts, well, [url=http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Cognitive_bias]here[/url] is a pretty good list of known human instincts. Also, [url=http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Evolutionary_psychology]this[/url] for explaining a bit on how they arose.
Thanks for the update, Nick. Will take a read :) (And i really like to see that the term buttsniffing became widespread in this thread *g*) I really have to start a thread asking about the possibilities of uplifts, my status is, that they finally uplifted a lizard and pretty much any mammal is possible.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 09:01
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I disagree with that strongly. How do you uplift a mouse? You have to add so much stuff to it in order to achieve sentience, how is it still a mouse? You might as well say you welded a skateboard onto a cessna, and now you've made a flying skateboard. No, it's a cessna.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 10:03
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
That goes for all of them, to varying degrees. Monkey, sure. Octopus, … I guess. Avian? Meh, bird-brains. :D
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Thu, 2011-02-10 11:13
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Ravens and grey parrots are actually extremely brilliant. Alex is the most quoted example, who was said to have the intelligence of a five-year-old, and likely capable of more, including language (and grammar), basic math, and emotional intelligence. Make a parrot bigger, with a larger brain, and you get greater intelligence while still being fully 'parrot'. National Geographic suggests that ravens are comparable in intelligence with chimps, so the same principle applies - bigger raven, bigger brain, now you've got an animal as intelligent as a sixteen-year-old human, but still innately of the same species or subspecies as the original. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/12/1209_041209_crows_apes.html Of course, you hit a level with almost any animal where you need to augment with more human-like traits in order to reach human-level intelligence, but increasing an animal from the intelligence of a twelve-year-old to that of a twenty-year-old still results in an animal that is more its original nature than it is that of the secondary nature. A mouse however does not fall on the human scale of intelligence. It has no language skills. It has no math skills. It has no recorded emotional intelligence. The amount of brain matter dedicated to mouse intelligence rather than basic operations is pretty small. If you took the 'mouse intelligence' and uplifted it to human levels, you'll end up with more human added than original mouse material. I wouldn't call that an uplift. At best, it's a chimera. I would argue that in order to uplift an animal, you must have a minimal level of intelligence to start with. Then you increase that by a certain level (with it being a modified animal, but still fully that animal), then add something else to fill in any gaps. We can debate what that initial level of intelligence must be, but I think we can all agree a mouse doesn't have it. (The work around is, you can breed a new species based on the mouse genome, but now you're uplifting that new, unique species - not mice.)
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Thu, 2011-02-10 12:25
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I agree with your disagreement. The mouse example is a bit extreme though. I thought more along the lines of canines, felines, maybe a cow or whatever. But, you gave me at least some guidelines i can work with. So thanks for that: +1 r-rep
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Thu, 2011-02-10 13:09
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
The neo-lion example presents only minor problems compared to, say, octopi. How could we possibly adapt [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Reproduction]cephalopod reproduction[/url] to fit with a social system that pretty much universally respects the right to life, and not devouring your neighbour's offspring by the thousands? The first step in any uplift procedure must involve all such instincts, not to mention biology, being radically overhauled to the higher mammalian social model. My view of the Uplift plight is fairly bleak. I see the procedure of their creation as the outright hijacking of bodies and minds for the sake of simple anthropocentric imperialism. The very act of uplifting is, in essence, a wholesale stripping-away of an animal's 'inconvenient' behaviours in order to fit it to the procrustean construct of transhuman society. Yes, transhumanity may be highly advanced in its scientific-engineering capacities, but there's scant evidence of any toposophic breakthrough leading to an understanding of, or even acknowledgement of, different forms of intelligence. Even the term 'uplift' reveals an obvious bias towards human exceptionalism. I imagine even the use of such an ideologically-loaded term would range from faux pas to outright hatespeech most everywhere save the obvious repressive backwaters. This is what makes uplifts one of the more interesting elements of the setting IMO. They have been forced to play a game for which they are ill-designed and only half-familiar of the rules. Indeed their bodies may be highly efficient in certain environments, thus making their forms useful tools to transhumanity, but why remake their minds? Human arrogance, I think, and a crime that many would seek to avenge. Silly as it initially appears, the movie [url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069946/]Day of the Dolphin[/url] isn't a bad treatment of the issue of 'improving' animal consciousness for our own ends.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 13:38
nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
oh god, not another animal hugger.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 14:24
Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
You're giving a species a huge evolutionary competitive advantage, reason. Or at least what approximates it around these parts, heh. Ironically I believe it's the only way some species are going to survive the ultrapredator that is man. Is giving a being more control and choice over its own destiny really that bad? I'd actually look to uplifted animals to dissent to and curb some of humanities more hostile and aggressive instincts. Would an uplifted dolphin be as eager to screw the ocean up? But yes you're essentially augmenting without consent. People already do far worse to animals already so it's a moot point. If such augmentation gets animals respect and inherent rights than it's a small price to pay. Personally if I could uplift cetaceans and teach them how to use limpet mines on japanese whaling ships I'd do it in a heartbeat. (yes I know the US navy toyed with the idea in the past.) Not so fun when they fight back eh?
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Thu, 2011-02-10 14:55
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I think you're being a bit too sanguine about the 'human-like' intelligence of some of those animals (a 12-year-old? Please.), but I do understand your point about having 'something to work with'. Still, I side more with the view that Uplifting is basically 'human-ego-izing'. It's not a question of whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 19:24
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
oh god, not another animal hugger.
The ironic thing is I don't even like animals. My position stems more from a belief in the flawed and incomplete nature of the mind of Man. Nor am I sold on the overriding superiority of reason, such as we tend to define it. Many forms of life on this planet are faring much better than humanity without having scarcely a bit of sapience about them. And the benevolent approach of uplifting for the sake of a species' protection from us is not a moral validation of the procedure either, any more than my neighbour giving me a free burglar alarm exculpates him from wanting to steal all my stuff.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 19:30
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Uh oh, thoughtcrime. You can hardly hold him guilty of *wanting* anything. ;)
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Thu, 2011-02-10 19:55
Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
The Green Slime wrote:
Many forms of life on this planet are faring much better than humanity without having scarcely a bit of sapience about them.
Huh? The mind boggles at what sort of metric you're basing that on. Yes I hear red algae is doing great out there in the ocean. Look out humanity there's some stiff competition there.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 20:16
The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Draconis wrote:
Huh? The mind boggles at what sort of metric you're basing that on.
Ability to exist for any respectable length of time without wantonly inviting a planetary mass extinction event.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 20:56
fellowhoodlum fellowhoodlum's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Draconis wrote:
Huh? The mind boggles at what sort of metric you're basing that on. Yes I hear red algae is doing great out there in the ocean. Look out humanity there's some stiff competition there.
And I, for one, welcome our new algae overlords.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 21:04
root root's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
root@One of the Pride [hr]
The Green Slime wrote:
toposophic
I thought you might be the third one.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 21:14
root root's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
root@One of the Pride [hr]
Draconis wrote:
Personally if I could uplift cetaceans and teach them how to use limpet mines on japanese whaling ships I'd do it in a heartbeat. (yes I know the US navy toyed with the idea in the past.) Not so fun when they fight back eh?
They stopped training them to inject air into people when someone pointed out that they learn by example. [EDIT]My source for that is Wikipedia, so don't take it as definitive.
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Thu, 2011-02-10 23:25
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Lord. Let's avoid derailing into enlightened misanthropy, cuz I'm still interested in this topic. :) Ignoring any questions of what's right or what *should* be, what are Uplifts like in EP? We know that they understand themselves to be non-human, and that humans likewise consider them nonhuman (some with very negative results). What kind of behaviors might uplifts have, despite what I think we can agree is an intentionally human-ego-centric uplift process? Given psychosurgery and all the design that goes into this, would we have to assume that any remaining 'quirks' are either intentional or too hard (deep?) to remove? I'm most interested in the canon uplifts (neo-avian, neo-hominid, etc.), but whatever. This isn't even quite on the OP's topic, but it certainly includes it: those 'quirks' could indeed affect romantic relationships as much as any social interaction. Talk about men are from mars, women are from venus.
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Fri, 2011-02-11 02:30
GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
May i introduce ant-megacolonies? http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8127000/8127519.stm And lets not forget roaches. If we as humanity bring down our own demise... well: They already are present in bigger numbers, have infiltrated our homes and will certainly survive whatever kills us off. (Roach Uplifts - The Ideal Firewall Agents) Funsies and misanthropy aside (if i need that, i'd just visit a furry forum), here's what i think about EP Uplifts: What are Uplifts like in EP? A minority. I can even imagine, that a big part of the mercurial faction are actually human supporters. On the subject of thought, i think we all agree, that their psyche is anthropocentric, which includes the ability (though it is not the reason) to supress instinct. I have no in-game explanation for it, just the design decision so they are actually playable without people repeating the shapeshifter-discussions from Shadowrun. They are fairly capable of having any kind of personality one can imagine, you won't even need to filter it through some animal lense if you don't want. You certainly can play a neo-avian who expresses typical bird-psychology, but it doesn't need to be obvious. Just ask any person who handles many different specimen of the same species and they can tell you, that every one of them has a different character. Though, i can't tell how this applies to mice and other "lower" mammals. ;) Talking about quirks, i don't tend to think too much about it. As said in this thread, an uplift is not an animal-person from some Fantasy RPG, so i don't see why there should be any "hardwired" quirk at all.
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Fri, 2011-02-11 12:05
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Yerameyahu wrote:
The other issue you raise is instinct versus culture, and traditionally (that is, in literature, etc.) you have less instinct the more conscious and rational you are. I have no idea if that's scientifically true, but worth considering. Uplift Neanderthals probably exhibit nothing at all of an 'innate' culture (of the kind in your examples), while maybe Uplift avians do?
I would think that muses which were designed to assist in the socialization of Uplifts would be relatively common. They would be engineered to monitor their users' actions and inform them (up to a point, at least) of more socially acceptible courses of action.
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Fri, 2011-02-11 12:07
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Axel the Chimeric wrote:
I didn't intend for this to become a discussion on nature-vs-nurture in Uplifts, but that certainly is an interesting topic.
When dealing with modification of brains to engender human-equivalent consciousness, nature-or-nurture might be more of an engineering problem than anything else.
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Fri, 2011-02-11 12:12
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
nick012000 wrote:
I'm sort of dubious about the existence of lion uplifts generally; they aren't terribly smart to begin with so it seems more likely to me that they'd be smart animals or pods (or both, since you just need to install a cyberbrain and a puppet sock to turn a smart animal into a pod).
I thought that part of the process of uplifting involved bioengineering the central nervous system to be comperably complex to a human's, giving rise to human-equivalent intelligence (insofar as EP is concerned). That would necessarily involve reworking other body systems to support different energy requirements, making the process a nontrivially complex undertaking.
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Fri, 2011-02-18 15:03
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Butt-sniffing is pretty generally considered anti-social. A population which insists on engaging in that behavior is going to suffer socially, politically and economically in the greater system compared to a population which doesn't. Over the long term, I think that behavior will naturally be driven to extinction.
"Butt-sniffing" is anti-social in the context of human society, but not the case for other animal social structures. Dogs use "butt-sniffing" as a means of learning a lot about one another. The truth is that dogs carry pheromonal glands in front of their anus which produces a signature scent. This scent is released whenever your dog pees to mark its territory, takes a dump, or is in heat. Other dogs sniff this gland in order to get a wide range of information about that dog: age, gender, fertility, which stage of the menstrual cycle they are in, mood, and even position in a pack. These pheromones are so complex that dogs can even tell when another dog is sick by the smell. A dog's nose is so advanced, that it is capable of picking up and discerning this information just as easily as a dog can be used to sniff out drugs at an airport. So when a dog sniffs another dog's butt, it's only about as anti-social as reading someone's resumé or Facebook profile. That said, uplift dogs will likely be modified to be more socially acceptable for humans, who aren't fond of people sniffing other people's butts. Those anal glands will probably be placed elsewhere for a person (uplift or simply with the proper enhanced senses) to read. They might even be granted to humans for use in social situations.
GreyBrother wrote:
May i introduce ant-megacolonies? http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8127000/8127519.stm And lets not forget roaches. If we as humanity bring down our own demise... well: They already are present in bigger numbers, have infiltrated our homes and will certainly survive whatever kills us off. (Roach Uplifts - The Ideal Firewall Agents)
It would be interesting to find out if there is some sort of morph designed for rapid breeding and sustainability through numbers. It might even be an interesting concept for a group like the Exhumans... a rapidly-growing colony of intelligent ant-like uplifts that rely on sheer numbers and social unity to thrive in the post-Earth Solar system.
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Fri, 2011-02-18 23:10
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
I actually had a thought on the subject of super-organism morphs, inspired by these little fellows: [img]http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/8601/radroaches.jpg[/img] [b]Colony Morph[/b] Created by the Exhuman Ssss-hck (a name pronounced by a loud, sharp exhalation and ensuing gargling, much like the hiss made by a roach emptying air through its pores), the Colony morph is an extremely experimental and potentially mentally dangerous morph at the very edge of posthuman. Made of neogenetic insects that greatly resemble overly large cockroaches, the Colony morph is the organic answer to the Swarmanoid. Why it is so experimental is because the morph is not a pod; its brain is entirely organic, albeit extremely optimized and requiring organically grown, as is the mesh insert equivalent in each organism's brain. This makes it possible for the morph to reproduce on its own by having some of its hermaphroditic insects either self-fertilize or mate to spawn more of their kind. These eggs grow to maturity, but do not hatch until they are integrated into the hivemind, a process that happens only once for security reasons (though makes resleeving essentially a destructive process; either the ego transferred is a fork or the original morph must be destroyed after, as it will not accept being integrated into an unrecognized hive mind). Two particularly unique features aside from the obvious ones warrant mentioning. The first is that the morph only requires ten insects to maintain an average transhuman ego, with memories and functions distributed throughout the hivemind. Extra insects enhance this capacity, but only to a point, after which having "extra components" becomes redundant beyond ensuring the survival of the hivemind. A side-effect of this mental network is that the ego inside begins to increasingly lose the disguise that it is a single unified mind, starting to develop habits like referring to itself as a group, much like the symptoms suffered by synergists. The second is that it cannot have a cortical stack and that the insects have an average lifespan of five years. This requires a regular turn-over rate, with new morphs dying off to be replaced by new ones across that time period. At present, only three Colony morph hives are known to exist, but there may be significantly more. No two morph strains are identical, each integrating further genetic enhancements and having different colour schemes. One even integrates different castes into the strain's design, mimicking an ant colony. [i]Enhancements:[/i] Basic Biomods, Biomesh (+5 to COG if swarm size rises to 20 or more), Swarm Composition [i]Mobility System:[/i] Walker (2/8) [i]Aptitude Max:[/i] 40 (SOM 0 ) [i]Durability:[/i] 35 [i]Wound Threshold:[/i] 7 [i]Advantages/Disadvantages:[/i] See Swarm Composition, Mental Disorder (Personality Schism) [i]CP Cost:[/i] 40 [i]Credit Cost:[/i] Expensive (Minimum: 40,000+) Sample Strains: [u]Sol Strain:[/u] The Sol Strain is found on a station orbiting Uranus. The strain is marked with a deep red, almost black and unusually thick carapace, and is somewhat larger than the original strain. It is adapted for life in space and can survive exposure to hard vacuum for an extended period. [i]Stats:[/i] Same as above, except as noted. [i]Mobility System:[/i] Winged (8/32) [i]Advantages:[/i] Enhanced Biomesh (increases range of mesh insert reception as if enhanced by a signal enhancer), Grip Pads, Hardened Skeleton, Medichines, Oxygen Reserve, Respirocytes, Shell Armour (5/5), Temperature Tolerance, Vacuum Sealing. [u]Droplet Strain:[/u] The Droplet Strain resides on the eponymous exoplanet and is adapted magnificently to the waters in which they swim. Smuggled in by a group of well-paid exhuman sympathizers, the Droplet Strain resides in the warm, nutrient-rich waters of one of the many island chains. Their shells are beautiful shades of blue and white, resembling the pattern of light shining through water. They resemble lobsters or shrimp much more than roaches. [i]Stats:[/i] Same as above, except as noted. [i]Mobility System:[/i] Submarine (8/32) [i]Advantages:[/i] Enhanced Respiration, Gills, Swim Bladder, +5 COO, +10 Swimming Skill
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Sat, 2011-02-19 10:59
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Actually, I was thinking of a hyper-breeding organism with full cognitive capabilities. I think it would be a completely plausible option for, say, the Exhumans. If not based on cockroaches, it could be based on any number of fast-breeding mice species. They would have a variant of the hypermesh link in order to make themselves a cohesive structure. OH CRAP!!! A singularity-seeking branch of the neo-synergists that uses fast-breeding morphs and hypermesh links to form a hyper-fast growing unified colony! My mind just a-sploded with the plot hook awesomeness!!!
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Sun, 2011-02-20 07:44
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Decivre wrote:
Actually, I was thinking of a hyper-breeding organism with full cognitive capabilities. I think it would be a completely plausible option for, say, the Exhumans. If not based on cockroaches, it could be based on any number of fast-breeding mice species. They would have a variant of the hypermesh link in order to make themselves a cohesive structure. OH CRAP!!! A singularity-seeking branch of the neo-synergists that uses fast-breeding morphs and hypermesh links to form a hyper-fast growing unified colony! My mind just a-sploded with the plot hook awesomeness!!!
Yummy. Transhumans following a r-strategy are creepy as they are (I had a fast-reproducing subspecies in one setting), but they make sense in very unstable environments. Have lots of kids, have plenty of variation, hope some survives. Hmm, how to implement this? The biological method would be to make morphs that can reproduce at a very young age. In the above setting, the subspecies had modified itself to be marsupials so that it was easy to give birth to a larger number of children. The smaller you make the bodies, the faster they can mature. And having adult brains is not necessary for breeding, so there could be a few reproductory cycles even before maturing into an adult. Gender ratio can be skewed towards more females, and with the right environment (think techno-placenta/infant rearing robot/muse) infants could have a decent chance to survive with relatively little parental investment. Of course, the mammalian bonding system and the effects of parent deprivation have to be dealt with... assuming the exhumans care. After all, having a lot of the next generation growing up into sociopaths might be a *good* thing - they should not learn that the universe is a pink and cuddly place, but harsh! The more technological method would be to pump out morphs grown as cheeply and fast as possible. Pods might be a good idea. Either forks of the existing members are downloaded into them or rapid maturation programs are attempted... after all, someone might have stolen the files from the Lost project. If the system is neo-synergist, having implants and the right software to teach/filter might also help. Again, nice room for individual and collective neuroses and psychoses. 'And this is the baby making facility.' 'My God! What are they doing?!' 'Making babies, of course.'
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Sun, 2011-02-20 08:40
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: One of the Pride (Transhuman-Mercurial relations)
Arenamontanus wrote:
Yummy. Transhumans following a r-strategy are creepy as they are (I had a fast-reproducing subspecies in one setting), but they make sense in very unstable environments. Have lots of kids, have plenty of variation, hope some survives. Hmm, how to implement this? The biological method would be to make morphs that can reproduce at a very young age. In the above setting, the subspecies had modified itself to be marsupials so that it was easy to give birth to a larger number of children. The smaller you make the bodies, the faster they can mature. And having adult brains is not necessary for breeding, so there could be a few reproductory cycles even before maturing into an adult. Gender ratio can be skewed towards more females, and with the right environment (think techno-placenta/infant rearing robot/muse) infants could have a decent chance to survive with relatively little parental investment. Of course, the mammalian bonding system and the effects of parent deprivation have to be dealt with... assuming the exhumans care. After all, having a lot of the next generation growing up into sociopaths might be a *good* thing - they should not learn that the universe is a pink and cuddly place, but harsh! The more technological method would be to pump out morphs grown as cheeply and fast as possible. Pods might be a good idea. Either forks of the existing members are downloaded into them or rapid maturation programs are attempted... after all, someone might have stolen the files from the Lost project. If the system is neo-synergist, having implants and the right software to teach/filter might also help. Again, nice room for individual and collective neuroses and psychoses. 'And this is the baby making facility.' 'My God! What are they doing?!' 'Making babies, of course.'
Hyper-fast maturation isn't really a necessity, just hyper-fast gestation and womb durability. For example, let's say this theoretical morph has a maturation rate of 10 years (fairly fast, but not too fast... I'm assuming that the hypermesh link will assist in cognitive development as the linked minds can share life experience), a gestation rate of 1 month (which is relatively fast, but not quite as fast as mice, for example), a womb that can bear a new litter after 1 month post-labor, and a litter size of 4 (which is pretty small, considering that smaller animals can carry 6-8 or more to term). This means that a breeding pair of this morph can produce 4 children every 4 months, 12 children every year, and 120 children by the time that their first children are capable of having children of their own. This gets even crazier when you add some tech into the mix. Let's picture that this morph species has built in fabbers as a component of their body. These fabbers would be utilized to implant the cybernetic components of these morphs during and after gestation (a female's fabber could be used to implant the hypermesh link, fabber and other essential components in vivo, while other elements are built-in after the child is born and has reached a certain age). These fabbers might also be capable of altering genetic information to assist the species in promulgation... the hypermesh link allows the synergized creatures to know innately how many male and female members of the species exist, so the fabber can alter embryos to ensure an equilibrium. This makes for a species capable of extremely efficient breeding. It gets crazier! If these morphs have mesh inserts, and those inserts can be configured to parallel-process vast amounts of code in sync, then they could potentially create a simulspace within which the egos of the children could be matured. If this is the case, then those children can theoretically mature on the mental level within 3 months (at 30-60x speed). Their bodies could, instead of being tailored for 10 year maturation, be tailored for 3 month maturation... meaning that their population could quickly explode given the right environment for their inhabitation. And that was my neo-synergist take on the concept. Here's my exhuman take on it.... Let's completely cut out the need for maturation altogether, because mental maturation won't be a factor for the exhuman (meaning that the female morphs will be built for maximum speed of gestation, maximum speed of maturation, and maximum turnover rate from labor to fertility... this morph might even have a fabbed cyberbrain to ensure instantaneous mental maturation). Instead, the fabber element of the body is also used to implant an alpha fork of the exhuman's ego into each and every embryo, ensuring that all minds in the network are one and the same. The end result is an army of forks that, through integration via the hypermesh network, have overcome the hurdle of needing to merge by constantly sharing all experiences, thoughts and emotions.... A biological seed intelligence....
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