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Problems With the Exsurgent Virus

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ThisOne ThisOne's picture
Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
Before I begin the thread: FIRST POST ON THE EP FORUMS! ...Okay, now that I've gotten the introduction over with in the most painless way possible, I have a problem. I am finding it hard to fit the exsurgent virus into a coherent whole. While I quite like some parts, the kind of body-horror, zombie type exsurgents (as in Glory) or the coherent but malevolent exsurgents described in the core book don't really seem particularly interesting or useful to the ETI under any of the goals in the book, and many others I've considered. Ideally, I'd like to loose most of the body horror and add some more cosmic horror. Probably, the easiest way to try and deal with this is ask for everyone's different takes on the virus and the motivations of the ETI and/or TITANs in creating the exsurgent virus, but suggestions particular to my own whinieness are also appreciated.
ExTaron ExTaron's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
I don't think there is one correct answer to your question, there are a lot of possibilities, it depends on the GM really and one of the setting's strengths is that such questions are open to interpretation. Here are a few that come to mind: -The exsurgent virus is rapidly evolving, there are bound to be some strains that don't quite make it. -The ETI are/were not "Evil", their goals cannot be understood by the humans, perhaps they try to force humanity to improve themselves by introducing such a threat, rather than eliminate them completely. -It is actually an eclipse phase, the virus is biding its time, symptoms have not yet began to show, so the magnitude of the infection is greatly underestimated.
ThisOne ThisOne's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
ExTaron wrote:
-The exsurgent virus is rapidly evolving, there are bound to be some strains that don't quite make it. -The ETI are/were not "Evil", their goals cannot be understood by the humans, perhaps they try to force humanity to improve themselves by introducing such a threat, rather than eliminate them completely.
My problem with these (and they certainly are the most natural explanations) is that a lot of the fiddly stuff doesn't seem to fit. For example, if the ETI was interested in transforming humans into monsters (to introduce a threat) the exsurgent synthmorphs, and the malevolent plotty sorts are explained well enough, but why waste valuable effort turning people into meat with some extra tentacles. Sure, it's possible, but kind of dumb, really. Likewise, the alternative; that it's an imperfect process or that there are malfunctions presents problems when dealing with the malevolent plotty exsurgents and the various exsurgents with a specific purpose (like the ones in Glory) Ultimately, the really broad nature of the virus makes it hard to define and use well.
Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
Actually the exsurgent virus' broadly defined nature makes it perfect for a DM to craft it to fit his own narrative. For instance I lean towards opposite. I could care less about cosmic horror, since I feel it's too impersonal. My particular strain was an experiment along the lines of forcibly evolving transhumanity into a superior organism quite deliberately. Well a TITAN's own twisted version of "superior" anyway. It was never a malevolent thing. More like a we're going to make you "better" whether you like it or not. This adds a psychological layer of conversion, us versus them feel. Are the converted truly better off than the non-infected? Your friends are now "monsters" and they want to "help you". In essence it's biological memetics, instead of spreading ideas, it's forcibly spreading genes. This is in contrast to say the oh you've just randomly become a tentacle monster strain and you're very very angry and hungry for no particular reason. You need to be of course repeatedly shot so the protagonist can look good.

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/infected_userbar.jpg[/img]
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img]

"Do not ask who I am and do not ask me to remain the same" - Michel Foucault

The Green Slime The Green Slime's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
In lieu of some imposing metaplot, the virus can only ever be what any given GM wants to make of it. This is a real credit to the setting and I kind of hope it remains blank. 'Exsurgent' is really just a cool-sounding euphemism for 'MacGuffin': its only consistent symptoms are that it makes stuff happen, and nobody understands why. Used in a frivolous context the virus seems only to be an easy means of generating some ugly monsters in a setting markedly devoid of throwaway alien baddies. To explain any more than this would require a significant commitment of revealing, perhaps only vaguely, the agendas of the setting's main antagonists, the ETI/TITANs. And if you cross that line even in the slightest, I think you defuse much of the mystery at the core of the setting and shut down a lot of its potential for inspiration. Would Alien be half as compelling a story if it explained everything about the space jockey ship, and how it ended up on a dead planet with a belly full of xeno-eggs? Would 2001 work better if we knew who built the monolith, and why? Should we know what's waiting on Solaris? Some things about a setting I believe even a GM doesn't need to know. You just need to understand the boundaries of the mystery and weave stories around it. My present thinking is that it's enough to say the virus exists solely to fuck our shit up in a sideways fashion, and hopefully the ways in which it does this are strange, horrible and multiplicitous enough for everybody to simply enjoy the crazy ride it takes us on.
root root's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
root@Problems with the Exsurgent Virus [hr]
Draconis wrote:
it's biological memetics
One of the ideas I kick around for the Exsurgent virus is that it is, at heart, only information. It can move between biological, memetic, logical, and religious information types because they are all expressions of some abstracted concept that the ETI came up with as a mathematical proof, and subsequently put to use to shape the universe around them. The purpose of the virus is simple enough to work at every level of abstraction for information: it filters information flow. It causes chaotic permutations to any information structure it can create an interface for, and it comes preloaded with the binaries for carbon and silicon based intelligent organizations. Any Singularity based on a short positive feedback loop will trigger this mechanism before they've had many identity shaking challenges relative to a civilization that developed the slow way. Since they've had so many fewer upsets from directions they couldn't predict and model ahead of time, the generalized TITAN-type intelligence will respond by evolving to adapt to this new threat in a vigorous and complete manner. From there it is fairly easy to play a metagame against the infected intelligence as to how many levels of abstraction they need to protect against. The individual parts either fight against each other, or get harvested to expand the ETI's version of the Internet (the Pandora Gates work pretty much like TCP/IP for matter), or get used in some other part of the ETI's immense abstraction machine. An older Singularity doesn't adapt as quickly, so it rapidly burns out and as long as it doesn't kill them all, they will be able to recover. The part I like to consider after taking all of that as a given is what if this is the most ethical thing the ETI could do about the possibility of TITAN Singularities? By forcing civilizations to either self destruct or to almost entirely die, the ETI never has to greet the more cancerous intelligences with any of its weaponry. They do this because the only effective weaponry against a hard Singularity that has had time to seat itself requires weaponry which comes with a rating based on radius, and the radius denoted in astronomical units of collateral damage.
[ @-rep +1 | c-rep +1 | g-rep +1 | r-rep +1 ]
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
One approach I have is that the virus is mainly focused on superintelligences: it is not intended to work well on mere humans and AGIs, so there it just causes monstering. The real purpose is to stop civilizations blooming into sufficiently advanced things that the ETI would be bothered by them. So right now the remaining virus is mainly corroding the structure of interplanetary society by attacking metaorganisms like societies, corporations and rep networks. It is the secret ingredient helping things go badly for transhumanity on the biggest possible scale... The real threat is not exsurgents, but the episomes - small viral caches that watch, plan and execute a distributed conspiracy.
Extropian
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
ThisOne wrote:
My problem with these (and they certainly are the most natural explanations) is that a lot of the fiddly stuff doesn't seem to fit. For example, if the ETI was interested in transforming humans into monsters (to introduce a threat) the exsurgent synthmorphs, and the malevolent plotty sorts are explained well enough, but why waste valuable effort turning people into meat with some extra tentacles. Sure, it's possible, but kind of dumb, really.
A genetic algorithm? What if Exsurgent was analyzing activity strategies of whatever it infected and was trying different permutations to find ones which were more efficient in the long run?
Draconis Draconis's picture
Re: Problems With the Exsurgent Virus
The Doctor wrote:
ThisOne wrote:
My problem with these (and they certainly are the most natural explanations) is that a lot of the fiddly stuff doesn't seem to fit. For example, if the ETI was interested in transforming humans into monsters (to introduce a threat) the exsurgent synthmorphs, and the malevolent plotty sorts are explained well enough, but why waste valuable effort turning people into meat with some extra tentacles. Sure, it's possible, but kind of dumb, really.
A genetic algorithm? What if Exsurgent was analyzing activity strategies of whatever it infected and was trying different permutations to find ones which were more efficient in the long run?
Which is exactly what every normal virus does. Insofar as instead of "analyzing activity strategies" consciously, natural selection is taking place. Take HIV for instance, it's got a huge mutation rate so there's many variants in a single patient in a day. With the exsurgent virus' incredible adaptability different strains are a certainty.

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/infected_userbar.jpg[/img]
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/exh_userbar.jpg[/img]

"Do not ask who I am and do not ask me to remain the same" - Michel Foucault

FrankManic FrankManic's picture
What if Exsurgent is
What if Exsurgent is something *really* weird. Like post-singularity weird? Most people who talk about it assume that it has a comprehensible purpose of some kind. Its supposed to do something that would make sense. What if it doesn't? It's a product of super-human intelligence and its function is pure cosmic horror - We don't know, we can't know, and if we ever turn in to something that can know we won't be remotely human anymore - trans, post, or otherwise. One of the themes of the game is horror. And one of the roots of Cosmic Horror is that terrible things happen which simply do not make any sense on human scales. Whatever created Exsurgent or whatever Exsurgent is doesn't care about humans. It's not trying to do anything to humans. It's doesn't have any goals for humans. It's not competing with humans or trying to destroy them. We're like ants and Exsurgent is like a bulldozer. The bulldozer doesn't care about the ants one way or another, but it is going to build a freeway on top of them. Why does Exsurgent turn people in to tentacle monsters? It doesn't. Tentacle monsters is just a side-effect of the vastly higher-order, inexpressable workings of this thing. It doesn't "make tentacle monsters" any more than bulldozers squish ants. In game this could be kind of frustrating for the players, but then Cosmic Horror can be frustrating. Cosmic Horror doesn't think you're important or significant, so one reaction is to petulantly poke the quasi-godlike monstrosity and demand to be noticed. Then you get eaten and go mad. TLDR; Exsurgent doesn't need to have an answer. It's horrible for no comprehensible reason and all you can do is stave off the time when the Stars are Right.
What is boils down to is that "Killer Robots exterminate humanity and escape to the stars" is one of the *good futures*.
Bursting Eagern... Bursting Eagerness Soul's picture
FrankManic wrote:What if
FrankManic wrote:
What if Exsurgent is something *really* weird. Like post-singularity weird? Most people who talk about it assume that it has a comprehensible purpose of some kind. Its supposed to do something that would make sense. What if it doesn't? It's a product of super-human intelligence and its function is pure cosmic horror - We don't know, we can't know, and if we ever turn in to something that can know we won't be remotely human anymore - trans, post, or otherwise. TLDR; Exsurgent doesn't need to have an answer. It's horrible for no comprehensible reason and all you can do is stave off the time when the Stars are Right.
Then I would say you have gone straight into the Sufficiently Advanced Aliens and Blue and Orange Morality tropes. I would also remind you that the Exsurgent virus is (in most variations and theories) a [i]tool[/i], and not the hand that is wielding it.
In other words, firing off a laser with a sufficient TWR for the recoil to be noticeable would require a post-miracle-tech laser weighing less than a disposable plastic spoon and powerful enough to shoot down Death Stars? -- ShadowDragon8685
FrankManic FrankManic's picture
And that's exactly what I'm
And that's exactly what I'm saying - You could have it be something built by Sufficiently Advanced Aliens with Blue and Orange Morality. And that would fit OPs desire for more Cosmic Horror. WARNING: TvTropes is a Class X Memetic Hazard http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CosmicHorrorStory Blue and Orange Morality is even on the list! You know, if you haven't I strongly suggest you read Blindsight by Peter Watts to get an idea of what a really horrific hard sci-fi Eldritch Abomination might look like, and why Sufficiently Advanced Aliens make very good obstacles for a "The only way out is boots first" sort of campaign.
What is boils down to is that "Killer Robots exterminate humanity and escape to the stars" is one of the *good futures*.