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Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental stress consequences per rules?

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Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental stress consequences per rules?
An idea has been brought up, on at least two seperate times that in combat situations one could endlessly duplicate and send to fight copies of the same soldiers:
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A soldier gets trained constantly, then has five alpha forks of himself sleeved as a squad in synthmorphs. They fight for a few days, they pull back and are replaced by another squad of the same. They are then merged into the same recruit, who accumulates five times the combat experience he would have had to reflect on (including what not to do if some of his forks died). Then, next time combat comes around, you repeat the process. If they all died, you can still recover their stacks and merge them. They need not fear death, because they will all likely be re-merged into themselves again.
It seems to me that this is very short sighted approach. I looked up in the rules, and I would claim that such attempt would result in constant stress and traum eventually leading to psychosis. Following rules would apply regarding stress levels in such situation: Page 214-215: Stressful situations-extreme violence, torture, witnessing murder, failing in motivational goal(all part of battlefield),helplessness Page 270 Continuity stress levels-especially important in case of violent or unknown death One needs to remember that with each resleeving comes Alienation and Integration test as well. Merging rules and acquired SV in case of alpha forks-page 275 Finally mental health rules on page 209. In all the above modifiers would mean constant raise of stress levels in a character constantly resleeved and sent to fight again. In short this person would eventually become a psychotic character. The above doesn't include issues like ability to destroy cortical stack, costs of morphs, illegality of forking to alpha forks. Your take on this?
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Stress, like all things, is ultimately personal and can be decreased with time (and hardening, which may or may not be seen as beneficial). Some people never get over the trauma of war (as evidenced by the shells of men that came home from the two world wars), while others quickly build a resilience to such things. I doubt dying, especially dying when sleeved in a synthmorph, would be much different; some people would take it in stride, while others would just fall apart. Sifting out which would be broken by it is something that every military tries to do as a matter of course. This actually seems like it would be a useful merit, in fact... [hr] [b]Inured to death[/b] 10 CP (Ego Trait) The character has either died a lot or just plain isn't that bothered by it. Either way, the memory of being killed or dying when they are reinstanced doesn't affect them too greatly. The stress values for being resleeved from a cortical stack are reduced to their minimums (0 for a peaceful or not too memorable death, 1 for a violent or painful death). At the GM's discretion, the character may or may not need to roll in addition to this, depending on circumstances. Characters with this trait are usually prone to bravado or apathy, but this is not necessarily the case. [hr] As for merging, no comment, really. Unless you're fighting for weeks or months on end without break, a decent psychosurgeon can not only merge you, but also give you the recovery time you need in a time-accelerated simulspace. This, combined with other potential psychosurgery, could make soldiers used for this purpose immensely capable... But it might make them more or less useless as people.
kindalas kindalas's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
I prefer the idea of having only a couple of squads of soldiers. Say 4 squads of 7 solders each. (I wonder where I got those numbers from) Then Fork and deploy as needed. Need 280 solders fork em 10 times. Keep the missions under 4 hours and just re-merge the survivors. (or include the dead ones too) That way the stress is much lower then the constant re-sleeve and recycle approach.
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Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
This came up yesterday in our game session. The problem: 3.5 million infugees stored in a server since the Fall needs to be brought online ASAP. Most had a *really* bad week before being uploaded - if they were just started up most would go mad from shock, grief and trauma when they discovered that the Earth was dead, they were 10 years into the future, most of their social contacts were dead or had diverged, and remembered the horrors they "recently" experienced. First, the recent memories could be edited away or at least blurred, and the simulated brains filled with software antidepressants and calmatives. But these people did need psychotherapy to hold together. Unfortunately there were not that many psychologists around, and AI psychologists are not up to scratch. One of the characters is a pretty good psychologist. He decided to try the banyan approach: he forked himself to have one instance helping one person (out of a first batch of 100 people) for a simulated day. Afterwards he merged together the copies... oops, total mental wreck. Discard. With some help from an experienced banyanist (yep, the ubiquitous Ramirez!) he instead started merging his copies pairwise, with another copy doing quick psychotherapy to keep the merged version stable, then merging the merged ones (and excess psychotherapist copies), and so on. I ruled that this system works on average - a lot of stress is generated, but it is also dissipated. Over time things get easier, especially since many of the individual episodes blur together. The character will literally have talked to everybody in the emerging nation and will have some pretty amazing sociological insights - at the price of maintaining an average stress level of about 2d10, hardening himself to continuity checks and merging to an unhealthy degree and probably evolving towards an exhuman state. But he *is* helping people. And installing a pro-Firewall social back-door into an entire society. Yep, quite a lot of egos turning insane and crashing around my campaign. One copy of the character got trapped in a simspace security system where it will remain alone essentially forever - and the main character and another character *know* about this and didn't even think about doing anything about it. Generally, massive forking and merging is not yet very safe. It might have frightening effects on individuality and societies. That will not stop people.
Extropian
fafromnice fafromnice's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
In the same time why do you need soldier when you have fully replicating killing nano swarm ?

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Arenamontanus wrote:
Generally, massive forking and merging is not yet very safe. It might have frightening effects on individuality and societies. That will not stop people.
From a Hindu point of view, individuality is an illusion, which is quite common around the Universe. Frankly, there's something to be said for the mass merging of all minds into one super-intelligence. Hmmm... That's a fun story. Gatecrashing PCs sent to a colony, to find that all the minds of the colonists have been merged into one rather insane entity and downloaded into a single body. The resulting individual is mentally unstable but incredibly intelligent, to the point of near-posthumanhood, and scarily capable at just about everything they put their mind to (if you can ever get them to stop freaking out like a heavily autistic child being pulled from routine). Alternatively, one of the Lost, who kills people, extracts their memories, and creates a beta or delta fork that they add to the multitude of voices stored in a few ghostrider modules stored throughout their body. [i]My name is Legion, for we are many.[/i]
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Quote:
The resulting individual is mentally unstable but incredibly intelligent, to the point of near-posthumanhood, and scarily capable at just about everything they put their mind to (if you can ever get them to stop freaking out like a heavily autistic child being pulled from routine).
EP is somewhat dystopic setting-entities like this end up with...issues. There is another problem with synthmorphs and forking-once one gets infected with Exsurgent virus all get infected. I think that's a major factor against using such strategy.
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
Ramidel Ramidel's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Everyone should probably take a quick look at the bottom of page 214 in the corebook. That's where the Hardening rules can be found. If you want to play a character who's a soldier, or who just has a fetish for being violently killed, tell your GM that you're dropping points of Moxie on being hardened against violence and death. It should be acceptable for most stressors.
The Doctor The Doctor's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Ramidel wrote:
If you want to play a character who's a soldier, or who just has a fetish for being violently killed, tell your GM that you're dropping points of Moxie on being hardened against violence and death. It should be acceptable for most stressors.
That is definitely being worked into the backstory of one of my NPCs. Thank you.
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
WHile I advocated using forks and resleeving to minimize training costs and maximize experience, I will admit there's a few problems. 1. the accumulation of stress on the egos involved. Possibly treatable with various means, like having some forks in a VR vacation/treatment facility while others on on the front. 2. The other possible problem is that you may begin to recognize the patters that enemy forces use. "No, they're hiding over there, not on the ridge!" "How do you know?" "That's how they always do it!" Getting predictable is a good way to get defeated.

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Lowsow Lowsow's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
This reminds me of Surface Details, by Ian Banks, a novel where a war is fought in VRs pretty much like that. The GM might want to start waiving stress effects. I think the continuous repetition would normalise people to death. After all, the first time you watched a horror movie you probably got terrified. After watching a couple the effect won't come with normal stuff anymore.
Lowsow Lowsow's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Extrasolar Angel][quote wrote:
There is another problem with synthmorphs and forking-once one gets infected with Exsurgent virus all get infected. I think that's a major factor against using such strategy.
I love that idea. I can see it now - a habitat is invaded and put under control of a single person forked a few thousand times. The forks become uncommunicative and withdrawn, then vanish. As people start to take back their habitat they're suddenly overrun by psionic lizardmen.
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Constantly resleeving soldiers from the front-mental ...
Here is the list of stressful situations on battlefield that will potentially influence a fork: Helplessness 1d10 ÷ 2 (round down) Extended isolation 1d10 ÷ 2 (round down) Extreme violence (viewing) 1d10 ÷ 2 (round down) Extreme violence (committing) 1d10 Awareness that your death is imminent 1d10 Losing a loved one 1d10 ÷ 2 (round down) Watching a loved one die 1d10 + 2 Being responsible for the death of a loved one 1d10 + 5 Encountering a gruesome murder scene 1d10 Now, losing a loved one might be a stretch,but watching yourself die(if it is an alpha fork) I would put into the category of watching a loved one die. As it can be seen there are a lot of stress value situations here. The rulebook of course mentions that Gamemaster should be free to create more. All of this, of course, comes before reintegration and alienation tests(and SV from situation of death).
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Possibly treatable with various means, like having some forks in a VR vacation/treatment facility while others on on the front.
Rules state:"If accumulated stress points reach your Lucidity x 2, your character’s ego undergoes a permanent meltdown". So yes treatment is very important. But it takes time: ''Disorder: When four or more traumas have been inflicted on a character, a major derangement is upgradedto a disorder. Disorders represent long-lasting psychological afflictions that typically require weeks or even months of psychotherapy and/or psychosurgery to remedy'' ''Psychotherapy is a task action, with atimeframe of 1 hour per point of stress,8 hours per trauma, and 40 hours per disorder. Note that this only counts the time actually spent in psychotherapy with a skilled professional. After each psychotherapy session, make a test to see if the session was successful. Successful psychosurgery adds a +30 modifier to this test; at the gamemaster’s discretion, other modifiers may apply. Likewise, each disorder the character holds inflicts a –10 modifier.Traumas may not be healed until all stress is eliminated''
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]