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Messing with the Jovians.

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Tue, 2010-12-28 17:18
#1
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Messing with the Jovians.
Ok, if it came to war with the jovians, or if someone just decided to bust their blockade of jupiter's grav well, what tactics/strategies would use use? Personally, I think it'd be pretty easy to beat the jovians much vaunted military if you thought about it a bit. First off, the jovies probably use manned vessels because, of course, they don't trust AIs and the like too much. So they're sending out manned vessels. This means they need to have a pilot, pilot compartment, life support, etc and are limited to what a human body can withstand in terms of G's and such, plus they need to be able to return to base or be picked up. A transhuman enemy can send out a much cheaper vessel piloted by an alpha fork with no life support, human body, etc. The vessel could even be a throwaway, a kamikaze type optimized to be cheap and effective, once. Losing it costs the enemy less than losing a manned vessel costs the jovies. Also, when the jovies lost a vessel and crew, they've lost that crew forever. A transhuman enemy loses a vessel, the pilot farcasts back and they keep the training and experience. The jovies need a new pilot/crew and they don't have the experience. I could see some transhuman factions getting fed up with the jovies and just sending a ship to slignshot thru jupiter's grav well on an open "Screw you!" mission that was outfitted with disposable combat craft and alpha forks of a good pilot, the jovies launch intercept missions and in the end lose a lot more in economic and manpower terms that the transhumans did. In short I think a "war of attrition" would beat the jovies as they would lose their experienced combat personnel permanently, whereas the combat personnel of the transhumans would keep gaining and accumulating experience and skill as tyhey went into battle, farcasted back and came back with more experience. Not to mention the jovies would not be able to use cheaper, throwaway craft optimized for one brief combat mission and would have to use more expensive craft that cost more to replace.
—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Tue, 2010-12-28 17:48
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
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First off, the jovies probably use manned vessels because, of course, they don't trust AIs and the like too much.
Yes, that's why their AI's are indoctrinated slaves, willing to sacrifice themselves for their masters.
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A transhuman enemy can send out a much cheaper vessel piloted by an alpha fork with no life support, human body, etc. The vessel could even be a throwaway, a kamikaze type optimized to be cheap and effective, once. Losing it costs the enemy less than losing a manned vessel costs the jovies.
Was discussed on the forum in previous discussions. Factions don't do this in EP, since it is too much of repeat of things that lead to the Fall, synthmorphs/infomorphs aren't trusted(also are very vulnerable to hacking, at which Jovians excell at probably anyway), and the psychological stress is a big downside. Plus what if the Alpha fork decides that he doesn't want to be a kamikaze. Seeing how Jovians are quite specialy pointed out as having at their disposal Basilisk Hacks and partaking devilish nastinesses, bringing alpha forks against Jovian army is a very good idea ;)
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Also, when the jovies lost a vessel and crew, they've lost that crew forever.
Jovians use backups. See Jovian Spy entry in EP. They probably don't trust cortical stacks-which is quite reasonable. First it saves you from capture, and second of all, centralised control over backups is useful for ensuring loyalty to government that keeps them in safe storages(probably duplicated to prevent attacks)
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A transhuman enemy loses a vessel, the pilot farcasts back and they keep the training and experience.
Farcasting is expensive, plus they come back with all that lovely mental stress and trauma. Eclipse Phase is dystopic-not Iain Banks Culture ;)
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whereas the combat personnel of the transhumans would keep gaining and accumulating experience and skill as tyhey went into battle, farcasted back and came back with more experience
Yesss, untill they turn into that lovely mass of combined psychotic posthumans gibbering about the shade of crimson blue and the need to take your brain to Tau Ceti ;)
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Tue, 2010-12-28 18:30
Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Jovians use backups. See Jovian Spy entry in EP. They probably don't trust cortical stacks-which is quite reasonable. First it saves you from capture, and second of all, centralised control over backups is useful for ensuring loyalty to government that keeps them in safe storages(probably duplicated to prevent attacks)
He's a spy, and it's specifically state in his backstory that he uses transhuman tools and is a bit of an exception. It's doubtful Jovians at large have backups or resleeving facilities.
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Farcasting is expensive, plus they come back with all that lovely mental stress and trauma.
All of which can be dealt with. I think you'll find anyone who gets injured in combat, or goes into combat, period, is going to come out stressed and traumatized. Soldiers still manage to serve and get on with it. Resleeving, like any stress or trauma, could be something you get used to. Some people suffer nightmares their whole life from discovering a corpse, while others deal with them daily (such as coroners or crime scene cleaning people) and barely bat an eyelash at it. Some people faint at the sight of blood, some people get aroused by it. Point is, not everyone would come back a gibbering wreck, and the amount of stress counseling and psychosurgery available probably means that this would be easily dealt with through time.
Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Yesss, untill they turn into that lovely mass of combined psychotic posthumans gibbering about the shade of crimson blue and the need to take your brain to Tau Ceti ;)
There's a reason you do a test to see if someone's out to lunch before you send them back into the field.
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[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]
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Tue, 2010-12-28 19:34
Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
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He's a spy, and it's specifically state in his backstory that he uses transhuman tools and is a bit of an exception.
What's stated as exception is that he uses a flat morph, while he could have used any other ;) As to the question, he is a spy, they are the military. I doubt they have less combat abilities than spies. Sure say they are only used during military duty, and then have to undergo psychological treatment, but I think that's quite plausible solution.
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It's doubtful Jovians at large have backups or resleeving facilities.
The Jovians are stated to have backups in the corebook itself, page 60:
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Punishments are even more draconic in the Jovian Republic, where permanent execution and the destruction of all backups is the most common punishment for serious crimes against the leaders or large groups of the populace. Since the rulers of the Republic are strong bioconservatives, personality editing and forced uploading are rarely used. Forced indenture is very common, however, as are more standard forms of imprisonment.
Furthermore with Jovian faction splicer morph is mentioned as common among,and it requires sleeving. Jovians are only restricted from advanced nanotech and nanowear.
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All of which can be dealt with
With resources and time, which even in EP are limited. Oh and btw regarding Alpha Forks: EP page 273:
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Creating alpha forks is illegal in many jurisdictions, [b]including most of the inner system[/b] and the Jovian Republic.
Furthermore, page 275:
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While forking is child’s play from a technological standpoint, the psychological and social effects of cloning a mind mean that most people are cautious about employing forks. [b]Some jurisdictions ban forking outright for all but medical uses, while others have severe restrictions. In many hypercorp jurisdictions, for instance, alpha forks are illegal and letting a beta fork run for more than 4 hours without merging violates the modern descendants of 20th-century anti-trust laws.[/b]
As I said, people sometimes forget that EP is a bit of dystopic system, not shiny happy transhuman setting full of talking octopi and AI's that talk to alien beings wanting us to go on travel to Happy System 11 ;) That sort of thing happens only in the Outer System, and Jovians protect us from those drugged out people who allow anyone in the habitat to produce nanoplagues ;)
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A transhuman enemy can send out a much cheaper vessel piloted by an alpha fork with no life support, human body, etc.
A transhuman entity sending out multiple alpha forks on kamikaze runs? Seems like an dangerous exhuman with Planetary Consortium's and Jovian Republic's bounty on its head :)
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A transhuman enemy loses a vessel, the pilot farcasts back and they keep the training and experience.
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whereas the combat personnel of the transhumans would keep gaining and accumulating experience and skill as tyhey went into battle, farcasted back and came back with more experiencep
As well as the virus they/it has been infected with. With merging of forks, soon all of them will be infected and turn against you...On the other hand, the Jovians gain some useful empty bases-they just need to scrape all that meat from suicides and murder frenzy off the walls.
—
[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]
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Tue, 2010-12-28 19:55
Shark_Sandwich Shark_Sandwich's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
To me, the real question is not "could someone else mess with the Jovians", but "why would someone mess with the Jovians?" Keep in mind that the only group as presented that really has the ability to do anything about the Jovians is the Planetary Consortium (LLA and Morningstar seem to be inward looking and either on the decline or still organizing). The PC is fundamentally a business entity. So, an attack on the Jovians must make financial sense for them. Right now, all the Jovians are doing is taxing their ships that are using Jupiter's gravity well. An armada, even an unpiloted one (with all of the problems of hacking discussed by Extrasolar Angel) is expensive to build and maintain. So, the cost of the armada + a valuation of the potential outcome of something going wrong and losing (including reprisals, etc.) + the cost of trade disruption caused by your military adventures must be less than the cost of the tariff. Not very likely. The rest of it--the Jovian's bioconservativism, political repression, rhetorical denunciation of PC policies--is irrelevant. The PC is not going to launch a military adventure like this because they get "fed up" with the Jovian's attitude or being taxed a little bit. The only people that might be motivated to do something for purely ideological reasons are the Autonomists, and they likely do not have the resources and coordination to do anything about the Jovians. Now if the Jovians started to make noise about invading the Inner System or something, then you have a different situation. But there is nothing in the presented materials that implies that the Republic is doing anything other than defending its turf and building a bioconservative sanctuary.
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Tue, 2010-12-28 23:02
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
Well, some groups might decide not to allow the jovians to build up to a huge powerbase in the jupiter system which could eventually threaten the rest of trasnhumanity. I mean, people tried ignoring the nazis as long as they were just in germany. Then in austria. Then in belguim..... Worked real good, din't it? Some factions may decide on a premeptive strike approach to weaken the jovies before they attain a massive powerbase. I mean, when people have a stated goal to exterminate you, why wait for them to make the opening move? Of course this could backfire as a pre-empt on the jovies could start a war, but if war with them is inevitable why let them build up their forces to an unstoppable level? Maybe the other big power blocs might put of confrontation with the jovies, but others might feel the need to take preemptive action to keep them from amassing too great a force. probing their defenses with replaceble, low cost forces might be part of that.
—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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Tue, 2010-12-28 23:34
Shark_Sandwich Shark_Sandwich's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
It's certainly a viable way to portray the Jovians (YMMV and all that), but I don't think there is anything in the canon material that states they seek to exterminate the rest of transhumanity. I certainly think the Jovians are willing to take out groups or organizations that they view as a threat to them, but that's not the same thing as having a confirmed agenda of conquest or genocide. If anything, as discussed in some of these other threads, the Jovians are interested in battening down the hatches and protect themselves for the residual effects of the reckless behavior of others. Your Nazi analogy works only if you believe that the Jovians will get stronger over time. If there is anything that potential opponents of the Jovians agree on, it is that the Republic is hopelessly retro and will be swept away by the tide of history. By that logic, the Jovians will never be stronger than they are right now. Why not wait, as your comparative advantage grows? That may not be true, but it seems to me consistent with the attitudes of the other powers as described.
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Tue, 2010-12-28 23:47
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
Re: Messing with the Jovians.
Shark_Sandwich wrote:
It's certainly a viable way to portray the Jovians (YMMV and all that), but I don't think there is anything in the canon material that states they seek to exterminate the rest of transhumanity. I certainly think the Jovians are willing to take out groups or organizations that they view as a threat to them, but that's not the same thing as having a confirmed agenda of conquest or genocide. If anything, as discussed in some of these other threads, the Jovians are interested in battening down the hatches and protect themselves for the residual effects of the reckless behavior of others. Your Nazi analogy works only if you believe that the Jovians will get stronger over time. If there is anything that potential opponents of the Jovians agree on, it is that the Republic is hopelessly retro and will be swept away by the tide of history. By that logic, the Jovians will never be stronger than they are right now. Why not wait, as your comparative advantage grows? That may not be true, but it seems to me consistent with the attitudes of the other powers as described.
Excellent points in logical terms. Still, I always have a slightly uneasy feeling when someone proposes just letting a disagreeable group "go away" on their own. It just doesn't seem to work out that way a lot of times in history.
—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

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