Welcome! These forums will be deactivated by the end of this year. The conversation continues in a new morph over on Discord! Please join us there for a more active conversation and the occasional opportunity to ask developers questions directly! Go to the PS+ Discord Server.

Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

29 posts / 0 new

Last post

Tue, 2010-12-28 01:08

Loyal Citizen Loyal Citizen's picture

Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

While sitting waiting for some car maintenance to be completed, I started thinking about the background as defined in the three books that we have as of the moment, and tried to make some sense of some of the storyline's mysteries.

Spoiler: Highlight to view

So we [i]know[/i] that a Bracewell probe was sent to the solar system by an unimaginably advanced ETI, and that probe started the corruption of the TITANS. The Bracewell probe was presumably found by the TITANS fairly quickly (days? weeks?) after they were brought online and given the comment in the text by military leaders that the TITANS were brought online as a result of increasing violence, it leads me to believe that perhaps Transhumanity had already found the probe- it just didn't know it yet. The key insight that I had was this: what if the Pandora Gates and the Bracewell probe are one in the same? The Gates are notoriously hard to detect remotely (infrared, ultraviolet, and visual spectrum seems to be all that they show up in, otherwise they are invisible) but with sufficient processing power (i.e. intelligence) they could be found. They are widely distributed, just as a Bracewell architecture should be (as many promising locations as possible). They by their very nature provide the ability for nearly instant communication between themselves and the ETI. Finally, all sorts of strangeness happens to those that use them- people not showing up at the same time as others, etc. so we know that they are capable of more than just simple transportation. They are attractive to intelligent lifeforms, who see them simply a transportation mechanism, rather than also a local laboratory- the specimens enter the lab of their own volition! My thought is that the gate found by the TITANS was on Mars, and that gate is the original Bracewell. Mars was heavily populated prior to the Fall, and the TQZ was a major population center. Perhaps someone stumbled across an anomaly when looking under Amazonis Sulci, and was actively researching it when the Fall occurred-- the initial data was found by the TITANS, and the rest is history. It's not clear to me as of yet if the other Solar Gates (including the discovered Martian Gate) are copies created by the TITANS of if the Bracewell itself created them (the Martian Gate would then be an explicit trap set for Transhumanity).

Given the wise decision to leave much up to the GM makes all this pure speculation, this is by no means official even if it matches the metastory as envisioned by Posthuman-- the Ultimate Rule guarantees that. :bigsmile: Thoughts?

Tue, 2010-12-28 02:39

Jürgen Hubert Jürgen Hubert's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

This [i]is[/i] possible, but I'm not so sure that the Martian Gate was the initial one. After all, if Transhumanity had detected the Gate before the Fall, there would have been traces of this. Not necessarily data traces, given how corrupted all the data got during the Fall, but physical ones. The site of the Gate would have converted into some sort of military or government base, and traces of that would probably have been found as the base was "rediscovered". If you want to go with that theory, I'd go with another Gate in, say, Antarctica. After all, nobody can check there right now if Transhumans found it first, right?

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [url=http://arcana.wikidot.com/]Arcana Wiki[/url] - Distilling the Real World for Gaming [url=http://urbis.wikidot.com/]Urbis - A World of Cities[/url]

Tue, 2010-12-28 03:38

nick012000 nick012000's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Jürgen Hubert wrote:
This [i]is[/i] possible, but I'm not so sure that the Martian Gate was the initial one. After all, if Transhumanity had detected the Gate before the Fall, there would have been traces of this. Not necessarily data traces, given how corrupted all the data got during the Fall, but physical ones. The site of the Gate would have converted into some sort of military or government base, and traces of that would probably have been found as the base was "rediscovered". If you want to go with that theory, I'd go with another Gate in, say, Antarctica. After all, nobody can check there right now if Transhumans found it first, right?

I think he's saying that there's a [i]second[/i] Martian Gate in what is now the TEZ that transhumans found prior to the Fall, which infected the TITANs with the Exsurgent Virus and made them go nuts.

—

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Tue, 2010-12-28 03:46

fellowhoodlum fellowhoodlum's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Oddly enough I had a similar idea about a second, older gate on Mars for my group's EP campaign. Can't say too much about it until perhaps after this Sunday's game... :)

Tue, 2010-12-28 05:43

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Quote:
it leads me to believe that perhaps Transhumanity had already found the probe- it just didn't know it yet.

This would explain what Project Ozma is doing in Nevada on post-Fall Earth as mentioned in Sunward p58 ;) I am hoping for Project Ozma book...The secrets they know must be very intriguing... I think there is a possibility that knowledge of possible ET artifacts or astronomic phenomena was known to some selected hypercorp or national group just before the Fall.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Tue, 2010-12-28 08:17

Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

It's certainly a plausible idea. After all, aside from mentioning that the Bracewell probe exists, EP has said very little about it. Like what it is exactly or where it is now.

—

"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...

Tue, 2010-12-28 10:24

Loyal Citizen Loyal Citizen's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Quote:
After all, if Transhumanity had detected the Gate before the Fall, there would have been traces of this. Not necessarily data traces, given how corrupted all the data got during the Fall, but physical ones. The site of the Gate would have converted into some sort of military or government base, and traces of that would probably have been found as the base was "rediscovered".

The Bracewell Gate would be located underground in the White Zone of the TQZ-- all evidence, etc. would be surrounded by the heaviest TITAN infestation known to Transhumanity (other than Earth itself). There very well could be bases, etc. there in the ruins-- remember that the PC threw bunkerbuster nukes at the TQZ which didn't seem to affect the TITAN presence much at all. This would also explain neatly why the TITANS don't leave the area and overrun the rest of the planet- they are guarding the Bracewell.

Tue, 2010-12-28 11:34

Loyal Citizen Loyal Citizen's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Quote:
I think he's saying that there's a second Martian Gate in what is now the TEZ that transhumans found prior to the Fall, which infected the TITANs with the Exsurgent Virus and made them go nuts.

Correct. The Bracewell "Gate" would be the one that was found originally, and then infected the TITANs with Exsurgent. The existing Martian Gate then could have been placed/created during the Fall as an "easily accessible" honeytrap for the remainder of Transhumanity. I fully admit that the rationale for the second Martian gate is completely conjectural (why are the TITANS protecting one, but not the other, for example) but it seemed like an easy way to create a story that fit the existing data. After all, even though the TITANs are unimaginably intelligent and prone to crazy (to us) behavior, at the end of the day, they are actively maintaining *something* in the White Zone part of the TQZ [Sunward p128]- they don't strike me as intelligences that would waste resources unnecessarily. The theory that every system with a Gate in it also has a Bracewell (either because the Gate *is* the Bracewell, or because the Gate is a drone/remote for the Bracewell proper) should put terror in the heart of Firewall. In the game Mass Effect, the FTL relays are used by the big baddies to control/influence the development of civilizations, and I can't help but wonder if the Pandora Gates aren't serving the same purpose. After all-- Eclipse Phase is the name of the game, right? The Transhuman civilization is infected- it just doesn't appear to be...

Tue, 2010-12-28 11:33

Loyal Citizen Loyal Citizen's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Quote:
This would explain what Project Ozma is doing in Nevada on post-Fall Earth as mentioned in Sunward p58 I am hoping for Project Ozma book...The secrets they know must be very intriguing... I think there is a possibility that knowledge of possible ET artifacts or astronomic phenomena was known to some selected hypercorp or national group just before the Fall.

Exactly-- there have been multiple hints throughout the books that *someone* (Ozma, Promethians, etc) know a lot more than most have been letting on. I hope for Transhumanity's sake that the Bracewell wasn't what Ozma was looking for. I have to imagine that it has capabilities that make TITANs look like cavemen. :bigsmile:

Tue, 2010-12-28 12:52

#10

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Let's review our assumptions... 1) I don't see any reason to assume the TITANs found the Bracewell probe so soon after they were brought online. Part of this is because of the nebulous definition of 'brought online'. We're talking about a network of highly advanced AIs, most likely feeding from multiple sources - that implies parts of the TITANs are online right now in the form of Echelon. The TITANs were almost certainly brought online in gradual increments, or perhaps stages. So the TITANs were likely online for a long time before the probe was discovered, but they may not have met the necessary prerequisites to interact with it. 2) We assume that the TITANs, when they discovered the probe, did not inform the humans for some reason. This seems odd. Initially the TITANs were programmed to answer directly to, and to support humans. Such a huge discovery would almost certainly be reported by an uninfected TITAN. I don't see the question so much of 'was the US military aware', but rather 'how aware was the military'. It could be it was pinged as a foreign probe and the TITANs were set to decrypt it, and that was that. But most likely anything like that would generate a lot of interest. We are also talking specifically about the Gate being the probe, so discovering the gate is a *HUGE* thing. There would almost certainly be a military facility there and ongoing research was the TITANs work the gate out. 3) Putting the gate on Mars seems reasonable. However, we have as of yet only seen one gate per planet. Mars would then break the rule. Also, the TITANs would probably need some pretty heavy infrastructure to get enough data from the Gate to do a hard takeoff. If the Mars gate were destroyed somehow and the current Mars gate is the old one reformed, that would tidy that up a little bit. Or alternatively, you can have a cool underground Mars military facility with a current and active gate. Ultimately though, I think Hubert's idea is best - put it on Earth. That's where the bulk of the activity was, it's easier to hide pre-Fall and post-Fall and generally falls together nicer. So what do we have? Military intelligence detected an anomalous device at location X (Nevada/Antarctica/Mars) and sets the TITANs to start cracking it. This is an SCI project - very few people knew about it. The TITANs did something (successfully deciphered the gate/Fell through the exotic matter into the eighth dimension/met an alien intelligence through the gate) which caused a critical error. Time passed with the TITANs disseminating and evolving this error, while setting events in place for the Fall. The Fall was executed. TITANs disappeared. Between TITANs and human response, 90% of the population was destroyed, including the majority of people who would know what happened. A few people did still know this though, knew there was another gate, had critical blackmail material on the new Consortium politicians, and believed they could leverage what they knew for significant gain - but also realized they were directly responsible for the destruction of the Earth. They could operate, but only in secret, and as long as they kept the Consortium on a short leash. This group formed into OZMA. From here we have a few plot hooks: 1) What did the TITANs find? 2) The TITANs were limited in access prior to the Fall, but were actively laying snares for the future. What if they infected those personnel they were active with? The same personal who would go on to form OZMA? 3) What does OZMA expect to find as they dig through what the TITANs left?

Tue, 2010-12-28 13:49

#11

Loyal Citizen Loyal Citizen's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Let's review our assumptions... 1) I don't see any reason to assume the TITANs found the Bracewell probe so soon after they were brought online. Part of this is because of the nebulous definition of 'brought online'. We're talking about a network of highly advanced AIs, most likely feeding from multiple sources - that implies parts of the TITANs are online right now in the form of Echelon. The TITANs were almost certainly brought online in gradual increments, or perhaps stages. So the TITANs were likely online for a long time before the probe was discovered, but they may not have met the necessary prerequisites to interact with it.

Fair enough. I was basing that assumption from pages 36-37 of the Core book, which gave a timeline of several days to wake up, etc. That being said, we don't know enough about them to be able to give a definitive timeline- as Jurgen noted, so much was lost and there was a lot of confusion.

Quote:
2) We assume that the TITANs, when they discovered the probe, did not inform the humans for some reason. This seems odd. Initially the TITANs were programmed to answer directly to, and to support humans. Such a huge discovery would almost certainly be reported by an uninfected TITAN. I don't see the question so much of 'was the US military aware', but rather 'how aware was the military'. It could be it was pinged as a foreign probe and the TITANs were set to decrypt it, and that was that. But most likely anything like that would generate a lot of interest. We are also talking specifically about the Gate being the probe, so discovering the gate is a *HUGE* thing. There would almost certainly be a military facility there and ongoing research was the TITANs work the gate out.

I view the lack of announcement as due to the existence of AGI directed basilisk hack behavior combined with a desire by the discovering cabal to keep the discovery secret-- any TITAN which interacted with the data gathered by the cabal (Ozma, whatever) or the Bracewell directly was compromised within seconds. At a basic level, the true Transhuman discoverers were keeping it secret for various reasons (politics, security, whatever) and had gathered a fair amount of data from the Bracewell-- without being able to make heads or tails of it. The TITANs who ran across the data as they "scanned the world around them" were instantly infected, since as AGI's they would be what the ETI was targeting to assimilate from the beginning, and this infection spread quickly to the remainder of their number. Once infected, they cut off communications from the base and killed the Transhumans there. So the military/research base that you allude to exists, but is underground at Amazonis Sulci- the base was what the bunkerbuster nukes were intended to take out. The Bracewell was sitting on Mars for a *long* time waiting for sufficiently advanced life to evolve, and was buried due to natural processes. From the ETI perspective, it knew that the Bracewell would be enough of an anomaly that a sufficiently advanced civilization would discover it quickly (or perhaps the Bracewell itself helped the process along a bit by creating clues- seismic activity, magnetic fields, whatever).

Quote:
3) Putting the gate on Mars seems reasonable. However, we have as of yet only seen one gate per planet. Mars would then break the rule. Also, the TITANs would probably need some pretty heavy infrastructure to get enough data from the Gate to do a hard takeoff. If the Mars gate were destroyed somehow and the current Mars gate is the old one reformed, that would tidy that up a little bit. Or alternatively, you can have a cool underground Mars military facility with a current and active gate. Ultimately though, I think Hubert's idea is best - put it on Earth. That's where the bulk of the activity was, it's easier to hide pre-Fall and post-Fall and generally falls together nicer.

The exoplanet of Portal would beg to differ-- six gates within one km of each other on a single planet. [Gatecrashing p122] That being said, I agree, there is no hard evidence for it to be on Mars, but I disagree that it would be easier to hide on Earth pre-Fall. I have to imagine that given the population and amount of sensor devices that would exist on pre-Fall Earth that very little of anything would remain hidden for long. Mars at least has the advantage of a smaller population and not being as well studied. But to each their own. :)

Quote:
So what do we have? Military intelligence detected an anomalous device at location X (Nevada/Antarctica/Mars) and sets the TITANs to start cracking it. This is an SCI project - very few people knew about it. The TITANs did something (successfully deciphered the gate/Fell through the exotic matter into the eighth dimension/met an alien intelligence through the gate) which caused a critical error. Time passed with the TITANs disseminating and evolving this error, while setting events in place for the Fall. The Fall was executed. TITANs disappeared. Between TITANs and human response, 90% of the population was destroyed, including the majority of people who would know what happened. A few people did still know this though, knew there was another gate, had critical blackmail material on the new Consortium politicians, and believed they could leverage what they knew for significant gain - but also realized they were directly responsible for the destruction of the Earth. They could operate, but only in secret, and as long as they kept the Consortium on a short leash. This group formed into OZMA. From here we have a few plot hooks: 1) What did the TITANs find? 2) The TITANs were limited in access prior to the Fall, but were actively laying snares for the future. What if they infected those personnel they were active with? The same personal who would go on to form OZMA? 3) What does OZMA expect to find as they dig through what the TITANs left?

I agree with all of this. :) If nothing else, this thread is giving me some great story ideas. :) I need to go to the car shop more often! Cheers!

Tue, 2010-12-28 15:58

#12

Jürgen Hubert Jürgen Hubert's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Loyal Citizen wrote:
The exoplanet of Portal would beg to differ-- six gates within one km of each other on a single planet. [Gatecrashing p122] That being said, I agree, there is no hard evidence for it to be on Mars, but I disagree that it would be easier to hide on Earth pre-Fall. I have to imagine that given the population and amount of sensor devices that would exist on pre-Fall Earth that very little of anything would remain hidden for long.

Pre-Fall Antarctica would still be very, very empty though - it probably doesn't even have a higher population density than Mars. Pretty much [i]anything[/i] might be hidden under those age-old ice shields. And if you don't like Antarctica, there is plenty of unexplored space under the oceans.

—

Tue, 2010-12-28 16:03

#13

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Quote:
Pretty much anything might be hidden under those age-old ice shields.

Per Sunward, there is something under Antarctica-with strong suggestions that indeed this is a Gate-page 51. But I wouldn't mind if there were multiple gates on Earth-as it was hub of TITAN activity. Antarctica, Nevada, Tibetan Plateau would fit nicely.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Tue, 2010-12-28 16:10

#14

Jürgen Hubert Jürgen Hubert's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Extrasolar Angel wrote:
Per Sunward, there is something under Antarctica-with strong suggestions that indeed this is a Gate-page 51. But I wouldn't mind if there were multiple gates on Earth-as it was hub of TITAN activity. Antarctica, Nevada, Tibetan Plateau would fit nicely.

Let's just say it was hidden on the Plateau of Leng. :D

—

Tue, 2010-12-28 17:17

#15

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

You can also plug it in to the Ural mountains, which is currently reported to be a hotspot of paranormal activity (and has been the subject of a few books because of it). Tie it into the Tunguska Event if you want.

Tue, 2010-12-28 17:19

#16

It that must no... It that must not be named's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Anyone catch the "dr. bracewell" reff in the dr. who ep "victory of the daleks"? I wonder if it was an EP reff, or an unrelated bracewell ref.

—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Tue, 2010-12-28 22:46

#17

Jürgen Hubert Jürgen Hubert's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

It that must not be named wrote:
Anyone catch the "dr. bracewell" reff in the dr. who ep "victory of the daleks"? I wonder if it was an EP reff, or an unrelated bracewell ref.

Well, whatever the reference this is also a point worth thinking about. If no human currently knows about the probes, why are they called [i]Bracewell[/i] probes? That's a kinda specific name for an alien artifact...

—

Tue, 2010-12-28 23:05

#18

It that must no... It that must not be named's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Jürgen Hubert wrote:
It that must not be named wrote:
Anyone catch the "dr. bracewell" reff in the dr. who ep "victory of the daleks"? I wonder if it was an EP reff, or an unrelated bracewell ref.
Well, whatever the reference this is also a point worth thinking about. If no human currently knows about the probes, why are they called [i]Bracewell[/i] probes? That's a kinda specific name for an alien artifact...

I guess that is a question. Does anyone know about them? Did the factors tell humanity about them? And WTF is a bracewell probe? Can it be recognized? What would be be like? Is it still active? Could it be taken and reverse engineered? I'd bet the creators worked like hell to prevent that from happening.

—

"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." -Jesse "the mind" Ventura.

Wed, 2010-12-29 08:58

#19

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Keep in mind that the term "Bracewell Probe" was not made up by the creators of EP. It refers to a probe sent for the purpose of communication with alien civilizations. The book using that term is referring to the concept (and should be taken primarily as speculation at this point).

Wed, 2010-12-29 10:56

#20

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

One of the things I have been playing with in my home game is that the Bracewell Probe is not an actual, physical probe per say. Instead, it is an incredibly detailed and advanced basilisk hack that the ETI have planted in countless systems. The book hints that before going crazy, the TITANs (And I imagine the Prometheans) had noticed that parts of the solar system were strangely arranged, or that certain bits seemed to be designed. Basically, the ETI went about to different systems using whatever technologies they employ and changed different parts of solar systems so that, when viewed from a very particular angle and train of thought, it triggered the creation of the exsurgent virus. They made sure that for the hack to trigger the consciousness would have to be sufficiently advanced (Seed AI level). One of the other things that I am playing with is that the ETI actually have their target species best interests at heart (In their own, twisted, billion year old entity kind of way.) The exsurgent virus is not intended to wipe out civilizations, it is instead used to Uplift them using Psi to a point where they might be able to comprehend the concepts the ETI minds use for communication. That's why the Iktomi art seems to vibrate to Psi users, and why the Gates themselves do the same thing. Every species slowly advances along, doing their own thing, and then suddenly either they develop a Seed AI or they themselves manage to comprehend the basilisk hack sufficiently that it triggers. That puts them on the path towards Psi mastery, gives them access to the Gates (And all the technologies that the ETI and other civilizations have left behind as sign posts) and hopefully, after however long, they are intelligent enough that the ETI can have a nice frank discussion with them in terms both will understand. Its a bit more optimistic than the default settings, but there is still horror along the way. Its just that at the end there is a chance that everything might turn out all right.

—

Wed, 2010-12-29 11:20

#21

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Indeed, the base material can be read as being very optimistic (as Codebreaker does, implying ultimately transcendance), or very pessimistic (i.e., near-inevitable mass extinction across the galaxy).

Wed, 2010-12-29 11:56

#22

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

I like the idea of the quantum physic ... we watch the univers to early, and if we (The TITANs) found the "bracewell probe" to early ? in an another way we have the "super-heros way" someone from the futur came back (bracewell probe) and put humanity in deep shit to prevent is own time line ... :D yay ! I know cheezy :P

—

What do you mean a butterfly cause this ? How a butterfly can cause an enviromental system overload on the other side of a 10 000 egos habitat ?

Wed, 2010-12-29 11:56

#23

Demonseed Elite Demonseed Elite's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

CodeBreaker wrote:
That's why the Iktomi art seems to vibrate to Psi users, and why the Gates themselves do the same thing. Every species slowly advances along, doing their own thing, and then suddenly either they develop a Seed AI or they themselves manage to comprehend the basilisk hack sufficiently that it triggers. That puts them on the path towards Psi mastery, gives them access to the Gates (And all the technologies that the ETI and other civilizations have left behind as sign posts) and hopefully, after however long, they are intelligent enough that the ETI can have a nice frank discussion with them in terms both will understand.

Something I found fascinating about Gatecrashing was that when it comes to the Iktomi, it implies that the Iktomi survived their hard take-off singularity, because they displayed Psi and use of the Pandora Gates. But then they disappeared sometime afterward.

—

"It's a poor sort of memory that only works backwards." --The White Queen, [i]Through The Looking-Glass[/i] [img]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/_zGgz13n3uzE/TWWPdvGig-I/AAAAAAAACI8/y...

Wed, 2010-12-29 20:21

#24

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

have you noticed that the likely places for a Gate are tied with legends? -Antarctica has been sometimes tied with Atlantis. Atlantis that disappeared in a cataclysm -The Tibetan plateau could be the location of the fabled Shangri-la kingdom that could only be reached once in a very long time. -Arizona/Nevada is the region once inhabited by the Anasazi, which vanished without a trace centuries ago. Coincidences? I think not!

—

[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...

Wed, 2010-12-29 20:53

#25

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Quote:
Arizona/Nevada is the region once inhabited by the Anasazi, which vanished without a trace centuries ago.

Anasazi=Spiders=Iktomi! ;) You could play the angle that some human cultures had psi abilities in some few individuals who sensed the gates, but that's a bit too much Conspiracy X for me ;)

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Wed, 2010-12-29 21:39

#26

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

That you mention spiders and the Iktomi, it brought me an idea What if Iktomi visited Earth many centuries ago? in America, there is the Anasazi lore. see above in Africa, there is Anansi, whom sook to encapture all the wisdom of the world in a bag but later returned it. Like the Jogorogumo below, he could take a human appearance. Anansi made appearance in lots of medium like novels (Gaiman's American Gods), comic books (JLA) and animated series (Static Shock, Gargoyles) in Japan, the Jogorogumo and the Tsuchigumo represented as a huge and cunning spider that lure preys to them. The way the Jogorogumo seems to take a human form to ensnare human prays leeds me to think that psi-gama abilities were used to trick the pray's brain into seeing something he likes. the gumo are featured in many traditional stories, going back to the 7th century, kids often talks about them during their Hyakumonogatari games, and in their early adventure Kagome and Inuyasha (I'll smack the first who says "Heel!") had to defeat one. There are many other references about sentient spiders, even in modern entertaintment and role playing games before the fall (Mage the Ascension's first adventure, The Loom Of Fate, was all about one of them; and one of the Forsaken's worst enemies is a sort of sentient spider in Werewolf The Forsaken). Another perfect exemple of cultural meme visiting Iktomi could have left us was Aragog in Harry Potter or Shelob in Lord of the Rings

—

[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...

Thu, 2010-12-30 06:59

#27

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

It can work, although the rationalists will explain similarities away with the anthropoligical principle. Basically, by virtue of it being seen by humans, we compare it to things we already know. If they were tall with pieces come off the end, we'd call them Ents and so on, but that's how humans go about identifying things, through similarities.

Thu, 2010-12-30 12:20

#28

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

It that must not be named wrote:
Anyone catch the "dr. bracewell" reff in the dr. who ep "victory of the daleks"? I wonder if it was an EP reff, or an unrelated bracewell ref.

We caught it over here and found it amusing. Technically, Dr. Bracewell was a bracewell probe of a sort - it was created to go out into the world and make contact with intelligent life (of a sort - substitute 'military intelligence' for 'intelligent life' and it makes a certain kind of sense).

—

[img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/info_userbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/argo_userbar.jpg[/img] [url=https://drwho.virtadpt.net/graphics/blankbadge.png][img]http://drwho.vir...

Thu, 2010-12-30 12:21

#29

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: Thoughts on Pandora Gates and Bracewell Probes

Jürgen Hubert wrote:
If no human currently knows about the probes, why are they called [i]Bracewell[/i] probes? That's a kinda specific name for an alien artifact...

[url=https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Bracewell_probe]Bracewell probes[/url] are at this time a category of hypothetical space probes. The 'probes in EP were probably not named after someone with the surname Bracewell in particular, but because they fell into that category.

—