beer and Rep score | Eclipse Phase

Wed, 2010-11-17 02:54

#2

Rhyx

Re: beer and Rep score

Make a fortune by starting a hypercorp that specializes in pay toilets? All that beer has to go somewhere..then again if you're in a vacsuit with a maker and the right blueprints you can probably "recycle" your waste back into beer again.

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Wed, 2010-11-17 03:22

#3

OneTrikPony OneTrikPony's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

borrowing 50cred is also trivial (with a refresh rate of one hour) so instead of ordering a beer tell the bartender to start a tab. And never drink at those places that use the automated tapster because you'll never get the right change.

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Wed, 2010-11-17 08:02

#4

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Incidentally, yesterday Bela Nagy gave a talk on technological progress here in Oxford. He showed this graph: http://pcdb.santafe.edu/graph.php?curve=153 Moore's law applies to beer! The price per bottle is decreasing exponentially. :-)

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Wed, 2010-11-17 10:44

#5

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

That seems to be Japan specifically. In the US it seems to be increasing again, thanks to the rise of microbreweries. Given how easy it is to brew beer yourself, I imagine that homebrewing is still a very popular, and very easy hobby. The big downfall is it converts Oxygen to Carbon Dioxide. I do wonder how beer would change in flavor due to shifts in gravity, since ideally you want the yeast to settle out, and the excess CO2 to escape safely out of a valve at the top.

Wed, 2010-11-17 11:15

#6

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Given how easy it is to brew beer yourself, I imagine that homebrewing is still a very popular, and very easy hobby. The big downfall is it converts Oxygen to Carbon Dioxide. I do wonder how beer would change in flavor due to shifts in gravity, since ideally you want the yeast to settle out, and the excess CO2 to escape safely out of a valve at the top.

The amount of CO2 metabolized by the yeast is pretty small, likely of the same order of magnitude as the metabolization of your gut bacteria. Gravity can be fixed by centrifuging the beer. Any famous local beers, besides the awful beer of Phelan's?

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Wed, 2010-11-17 12:21

#7

icekatze

Re: beer and Rep score

hi hi Beer, is that like Buzz or Petals or something?

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Wed, 2010-11-17 12:55

#8

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Arenamontanus wrote:
nezumi.hebereke wrote:
Given how easy it is to brew beer yourself, I imagine that homebrewing is still a very popular, and very easy hobby. The big downfall is it converts Oxygen to Carbon Dioxide. I do wonder how beer would change in flavor due to shifts in gravity, since ideally you want the yeast to settle out, and the excess CO2 to escape safely out of a valve at the top.
The amount of CO2 metabolized by the yeast is pretty small, likely of the same order of magnitude as the metabolization of your gut bacteria. Gravity can be fixed by centrifuging the beer. Any famous local beers, besides the awful beer of Phelan's?

hmmm....now im wondering if centrifuge spun beer would have a differnt taste then standard...... maybe warrants an experiment

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Wed, 2010-11-17 13:13

#9

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

If done properly, there should be no difference. Ideally, there will be no shaking, and you'll perfectly match 1g, which will make it imperceptible from beer brewed on Earth (not that it won't stop affecionados from complaining). However, that assumes a perfect, and sizable, centrifuge. Any slight imperfection will cause shaking, which would decrease quality by not permitting stuff to settle out, and gravity not matching 1g may either result in less settling, or increased stratification within the mash itself which reduces the speed and quality of fermentation. I imagine the cheapest way is to do beer with whatever the local gravity is, if 1g or less, then rely on lots of filtering to remove sediment, and finally introduced the CO2 artificially at the time of bottling.

Wed, 2010-11-17 18:55

#10

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

So a 50 credit (5 or 6 beers) will be a trivial demand ? Hey ! fun the story of the beer ... I question myself on what the barsoomian can make with cooling liquid ;) anyway ...

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Thu, 2010-11-18 13:25

#11

root

Re: beer and Rep score

root@beer and rep [hr] There are two parts to your question, fafromnice, the first being "if beer costs this much, how much of it can I get by abusing the reputation system", and the second, implied question, is "what type of beer comes with a cost in Eclipse Phase?" If we assume that makers are capable of outputting all the swill you want, then it costs nothing, and your use of the reputation system reflects that. Now the question is "what is the best beer that a maker can create trivially?" Which comes down to 1) ingredients cost, 2) labor (time) cost, 3) space cost, and 4) transport cost. The ingredients of a very good beer can be printed out from the ground up with a maker, with the correct fermentation built in, and the maker is in the bar, so there is no transport cost. So, even with the Best Lager(tm), an open-source beverage created by Simone[sup]7[/sup] while residing in a customized morph designed by Simone[sup]4[/sup] specifically to taste and enjoy beer, can be printed out at no cost. Now, if we accept this argument, makers can make a beer that is as good, or better, than anything crafted by hand. Given this, what kind of beer can command a price, and why? I would argue that any beer brewed "by hand", in a "natural, chemical free" manner, speaks to the imbiber in a way that a sterile printed beer cannot. Maybe they worry a little bit every time they drink a printed beer that they are ingesting nanoparticles that will cause their used splicer morph with the faulty nanoimmune system to throw a gear, so they feel a little bit better when drinking the "organic" beer, even if it tastes worse and they know their logic is bad. Given that the human psyche is the only part of humanity that makes it to transhumanity, and this sort of marketing works on us ridiculously well, I would say that hand made beer, even if it tastes like piss, even if it is distilled from piss, will have value that printed beer won't.

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Tue, 2010-11-23 16:19

#12

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

fafromnice wrote:
So a 50 credit (5 or 6 beers) will be a trivial demand ?

Maybe. People go over to their friends' houses all the time to hoist a few but their friends do not charge them for it.

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Tue, 2010-11-23 16:40

#13

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Yeah ! I was talking like bar and pub but it's big for 24 pack of beer 50 credits

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Tue, 2010-11-23 17:47

#14

lucyfersam lucyfersam's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

fafromnice wrote:
Yeah ! I was talking like bar and pub but it's big for 24 pack of beer 50 credits

In a post scarcity economy, the bar or pub is not really that much different than a friends house: it becomes a place with a maker dedicated to food/drink that the people on the station keep fed with raw materials because it's nice to have a place to go hang out and have some drinks with other people. For those using it, the beer is indeed effectively free.

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Tue, 2010-11-23 18:34

#15

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

oups ! I never tought of that really good point but in the same time, I'm Venusian and i was just egocast to the moon, so in my processus of dealing with the lower gravity I want to forget my self in a good old lunar scotch ... How I paid ?

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Tue, 2010-11-23 18:41

#16

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

With Credits, like the rest of the Lunars? :P And if you do not have any credits, you take out a reputation based loan with one of the Lunar banks.

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Tue, 2010-11-23 22:15

#17

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Arg ! Ok and if i go in another habitat with rep financial system :P

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Tue, 2010-11-23 22:25

#18

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

A good, well seasoned (is that the right word? I don't know scotch) scotch is probably an expensive thing. And a good lunar scotch all the way out in the Outer System will also be rare. So to get your hands on one you might bbe looking at somthing like a level 3 favour. With things that are rare and difficult to get the reputation system can be just as unfair to the poor (the unknown) as the capatalist Inner.

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Tue, 2010-11-23 22:38

#19

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

so at the end it will cost a trivial favor for a drinking night (only for you ... and maybe one or two drink for friends) and we go up one favor rating for each "tourné" (sorry I don't find the right world in english, but the meanning is buying a beer for every people in the bar or at your table) in a reasonnable limit funny subject after all

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Tue, 2010-11-23 22:52

#20

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

The word you are looking for is round. Buying a round for everyone. :) Really, it depends. Honestly the favour system we have doesn't really line up perfectly with how people in general life live. I dnt really think it is beneficial to look at it as a simulationist system, instead keeping it for PCs who do the things PCs do. For everything else, I try and keep it in the narrative. The fluff seems to say that going to a bar and having a few drinks is not something people need to worry about.

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Tue, 2010-11-23 22:53

#21

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Double post.

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Wed, 2010-11-24 00:21

#22

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Ho ! no ... I know when i GM Shadowrun 4 I keep in mind the lifestyle buy most of the normal day life thing like food (no expensive restaurant food, only if you have the high life style), clothing, normal bullet but i was more questionning my self on the reputation system with the every day life ... like going in a bar, buying some ticket for a play or buying an expensive dinner for impressing a girl/boy (depend of the morph) I know in game I will fast foward this type of event but for a better understanding of the system (and a better explanation for my player) i ask some little question :P

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Mon, 2010-12-20 15:35

#23

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

slightly on topic bump i build a (small) centrifuge, with the goal of attempting to make beer..... there were no survivors ok, i kid, noone was hurt, it "worked" for roughly 3 days, woke up this morning to find it making a pitiful "clicking" noise, and large chunks of itself and its contents spread evenlly across my basement floor, walls, and ceiling i think i need to head back to teh drawing board X_X

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Mon, 2010-12-20 16:34

#24

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Indeed, there are two major issues to concern yourself with here: 1) Carbonation results in a build up of gas. This is especially a concern depending on the sort of valve you put on. If you lose artificial gravity, the pressure may either spray liquid through the valve, or worse, block the valve and at some point blow a hole, making a huge mess. 2) Because it's a liquid, any shifts in the centrifuge may throw it off balance. That means your motor needs to be strong enough, well grounded, and all the structure needs to be solid. If you lose power or the habitat maneuvers, it can start throwing things around and it can break free. Also be careful of the wheat and hops you use. Normally hops are fine - they're custom designed for this purpose. But sometimes the wheat can be weird. I think it has to do with the proteins in it. It's meant to be easier to grow and form, but it makes a weird flavor when it ferments.

Mon, 2010-12-20 16:50

#25

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

heh, you hit (both) causes on teh head, the setup we had, was a motor, basically set to spin a giant X, with a container on each arm, each container had a valve to let excess pressure vent if needed. It wasnt a very "pretty" setup, but it seemed to work we think, that either one vented ALOT and tossed a nasty wobble into the whole system, that led to your 2nd point, and the whole thing just flew apart (heh, i keep saying we, should mention i had a friend helping me out with this, ive got teh beer skills, he had the mech know-how) we are already collaberating on a "beer centrifuge MkII: The Beer-a-nator" that hopefully will alleviate the worst of both points edit: oh before i forget, im assuming that, Eventully, given enough tries, im Going to succeed at this, so what should i call the product, given its orgins here?

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Mon, 2010-12-20 17:33

#26

Draconis

Re: beer and Rep score

Newton's Finest ? Freefall Foam ? Ballistic Beer ?

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Tue, 2010-12-21 05:09

#27

Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Coriolis?

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Tue, 2010-12-21 08:51

#28

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Ballistic Beer all the way :P anyway my post was more to push the reputation system in the every day life but ... keep me (us) informed it could give me(us) stupid idea for a game like : Look what i did with this post-TITAN centrifuge and vat-grow weats i found in one of this old TITAN war bunker ! or just to describe a bar on Mars ;) keep the good work ;)

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Tue, 2010-12-21 09:14

#29

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

fafromnice wrote:
Ballistic Beer all the way :P anyway my post was more to push the reputation system in the every day life but ... keep me (us) informed it could give me(us) stupid idea for a game like : Look what i did with this post-TITAN centrifuge and vat-grow weats i found in one of this old TITAN war bunker ! or just to describe a bar on Mars ;) keep the good work ;)

oh dear god, i dont even want to think about what a beer touched by an Exsurgent Virus could do....... ......i bet it would taste like nothing else this side of W̧̮̙̩͘È̡̪̳ ̦̻̜̭̤̬͈̱H̰̰̠̣ͅḀ͍̪̻̘̩ͅV͈̩͙̻͖͇̯̻͈́E͍̥̟̥̝͝ ̶̖̹̤̘͍͉̞͓̀͡A̵̡̭͖̹̫̞͙͝W҉͎̺͝O̷̤̻͚̲̬̪͞K͏̨̺̰̣̦É͖̪͇͔̞͙̕N͍̼͔̼̠͘ ̧̢̩̼̙͙A̦̼̝͎͍͜G̸͇̠͈̼̫̩̤͠A̪̦͚͓̫͔̯̝ͅI̙͈̝̬͍͓̠̩͢N̨͚͟

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Tue, 2010-12-21 10:10

#30

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

You guys are hilarious. It's interesting though, that beer is now believed to have perhaps been the first spark that led to civilization: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/history/did-a-thirst-for-beer-sp... The idea of it existing in EP, and especially of it still, basically, using the same methods from almost ten thousand years ago, just warms the cockles of my (cyber)heart.

Tue, 2010-12-21 13:23

#31

Draconis

Re: beer and Rep score

pablofiasco wrote:
oh dear god, i dont even want to think about what a beer touched by an Exsurgent Virus could do....... ......i bet it would taste like nothing else this side of W̧̮̙̩͘È̡̪̳ ̦̻̜̭̤̬͈̱H̰̰̠̣ͅḀ͍̪̻̘̩ͅV͈̩͙̻͖͇̯̻͈́E͍̥̟̥̝͝ ̶̖̹̤̘͍͉̞͓̀͡A̵̡̭͖̹̫̞͙͝W҉͎̺͝O̷̤̻͚̲̬̪͞K͏̨̺̰̣̦É͖̪͇͔̞͙̕N͍̼͔̼̠͘ ̧̢̩̼̙͙A̦̼̝͎͍͜G̸͇̠͈̼̫̩̤͠A̪̦͚͓̫͔̯̝ͅI̙͈̝̬͍͓̠̩͢N̨͚͟

In Soviet future beer drink you. : P

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Mon, 2010-12-27 05:55

#32

Jürgen Hubert Jürgen Hubert's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

fafromnice wrote:
but i was more questionning my self on the reputation system with the every day life ... like going in a bar, buying some ticket for a play or buying an expensive dinner for impressing a girl/boy (depend of the morph)

Going to a bar: The guy who runs the bar only invites the "cool people" of his rep network. You will need to pull favors to get in - if the owner doesn't invite you directly, then maybe one of the other guests will allow you to accompany them. The owner spends some trivial raw resources and energy on running his bar, as well as some non-trivial amount of his own personal time. What he gets out of it is a non-trivial boost to his own reputation, allowing him easier access to stuff [i]he[/i] wants. Buying a ticket for a play: Like the guy running the bar, the people organizing the play want to boost their own reputation with this. Since the space they have is limited, they are releasing (say) 150 tickets in the local habitat to people with good reps, which will in turn give them reputation boosts, since they are providing something to influential and popular people for free. These people in turn can decide whether to attend the play themselves, or give them to other people in their reputation network - which will give [i]them[/i] a small reputation boost as well. Since you presumably haven't gotten one of the initial tickets, you will have to pull a favor to get it. This essentially means that you have spent enough effort (either in downtime or in play) to make you "worthy" of such a favor. Buying an expensive dinner to impress someone: Again, you get it by pulling favors within your reputation networks. The people making the dinner want to get good reputations from providing it, so they are offering it to people with high reputations for free. Those people in turn can give it to other people with lower reputations, which will give [i]them[/i] a reputation boost, and so forth. The key to the Reputation Economy is that the most valuable thing in it tends to be the time and effort you put into helping and assisting your peers. Do good works and others will be ready to do good works for you. Don't help anyone, and your reputation will plummet - and with it, your ability to get stuff from your peers.

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Mon, 2010-12-27 08:45

#33

fafromnice fafromnice's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Thanks ! the subject take an another turn (a funny one by the way) but this is what i was asking for for the centrifuge do you have some specs or pics, just to give us an idea

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Mon, 2010-12-27 11:45

#34

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

sandly, no pics of version 1.0, it was just something we cobbled together out of an old electric motor, and some steel stubing we had lying about, and it dstroyed itself bfore it even occured to me "oh, maybe i should borrow a camera" version 2 however, once we begin construction on it im going to see everything documented probbly not gonna start building it until spring/summer, we are going to take it slow and plan things out first before gettig materials/etc semi-related, starting to do some writing, of my brewery in ep, i have some ideas about a brewmaster seeking the ultimate ingrediants...even if it means sneaking to earth to try to raid seed vaults, or hiring gatecrashers to find the ultimate growing soil.....

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Mon, 2010-12-27 17:38

#35

Draconis

Re: beer and Rep score

Why go to Earth? Agriculturally important crops are being genetically sequenced as we speak. Just use a likely public sequence and generate your own stock. My suggestion would be your brewmaster is in the race to get the sequence of a new hybrid that someone genecrafted before Monsanto or equivalent gets to them first. For even more hilarity make the final goal not the data but a sample of the actual plant itself. Players tend to ignore bland looking plants.

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Mon, 2010-12-27 19:15

#36

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

well, my thoughts on it were along the lines of, most beer/drinks/etc would be using gene sequenced crops, ingrediants, etc and thats fine for the masses, but some drinkers prefer a more...natural taste, hand crafted with heirloom(tm) ingrediants, the kind of beer kings would gladly murder thier children for

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Mon, 2010-12-27 20:07

#37

Draconis

Re: beer and Rep score

Heh you make it sound like there's a difference. What's "natural" and do you think people could tell without sensors? You certainly could try and make money by differentiating that way. They already do with bottled water. I've myself have never really grasped that artificial marketing difference. It's like natural gems versus lab created gems. They're both minerals.

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Mon, 2010-12-27 20:32

#38

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Quote:
In Soviet future beer drink you. : P

There was a short sf-joke from communist times where scientists invented a beer that could talk to you, at first the guy was happy, because he could drink alone and have somebody to talk to, but later it turned out the beer was telling everything he told while being drunk to police. ;) I think it was here: http://www.fankomiks.pl/images/senni.jpg

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Tue, 2010-12-28 12:13

#39

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Draconis wrote:
Heh you make it sound like there's a difference. What's "natural" and do you think people could tell without sensors?

That's a tough question in the beer world. Little differences can be detected. Hops grown in a slightly lower CO2 environment tend to have a more pungent flavor, and wheat grown in zero-g tend to make weaker brew if you don't adjust for it. Yes, you can copy the chemical compounds in an artisan beer with nanotech, but the process causes a distribution across the keg which is more difficult to replicate. To the average drinker, this doesn't matter - they just want their ethanol and water mix anyway. But to someone with a more refined palette, it can sometimes be detected. This is further complicated by the fact that those brewers who are likely to use heirloom seeds are generally those with the extreme attention to detail in other areas which we know make noticeable differences. And of course, some of it is just rep. it's the same reason people still pay extra for PBR, even though the industrial formula has been exactly replicated by, literally, no fewer than two dozen other distributors throughout the system. There's value to the name.

Tue, 2011-01-04 14:28

#40

pablofiasco pablofiasco's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

well, ive been partially beaten: http://vostokspacebeer.com/ beer designed to be consumed in space

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Fri, 2011-01-07 16:05

#41

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

CodeBreaker wrote:
With things that are rare and difficult to get the reputation system can be just as unfair to the poor (the unknown) as the capatalist Inner.

Just like now. Try getting an interview with a Federal judge or Julian Assange when you have just a blog with fifty readers on a good day.

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Fri, 2011-01-07 16:18

#42

The Doctor The Doctor's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

Draconis wrote:
Newton's Finest ? Freefall Foam ? Ballistic Beer ?

Gravity Well? Satellite Lock IPA? It's 5 O'clock Now? Heavy Metal Lager? Orbital Perturbation? Signal Degredation?

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Fri, 2011-01-07 22:52

#43

Lord High Munchkin Lord High Munchkin's picture

Re: beer and Rep score

'Orbital Decay' or 'Gas Giant'?