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How much does a server cost?

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babayaga babayaga's picture
How much does a server cost?
EP breaks up computers into essentially three cathegories of increasing computational power: peripherals, personal computers, and servers. How much do they cost? Personal computers seem to have a Low cost. This is the cost of an Ecto, as well as that of a ghostrider module (which can support an infomorph). Mesh Inserts are also explicitly PC-level, and cost Moderate, but they include other gear. One can then assume that peripherals have a Trivial cost. But what about servers? We know that they can run simulspace programs, and a month-long subscription to a simulspace has a Moderate cost. Based on this, I'd say that a server has a High cost (based on the EP standard of pricing a replenishable source of some item one cost cathegory above the item itself - see e.g. blueprints and drug glands), but it's a very wild guess.
Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
I'm curious about this too. I'd like to know what it would take to build a small server inside a synthmorph. What would happen if you used a server as a cyberbrain? Even if it's "nothing", I can still think of a lot of uses for it.
Xahn Borealis Xahn Borealis's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
Unfortunately, so can the Planetary Consortium. Any attempt to boost personal synthetic intelligence to server-like levels is illegal, as that could result in a seed AI and we all know what happened last time we had some seed AIs around. Which is why I can see the cost of a simulspace server (or any other kind of server) being Expensive, at least nearer to Mars, anyway. In the outer system, they'd maybe be High and possibly more numerous.
root root's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
root@How much does a server cost? [hr] The sidebar on page 237 of the core book implies that Mainframes are simply not allowed in most places, except for very specific uses such as controlling the life support systems in habitats. There are specific and heavy security measures take to insure these computer systems are not accessible, and are made fail-safe with other security measures (which are unnamed). An approximation I used was to look at what bonuses you can get from a server as a piece of gear. Good quality gear can give up to a +30 bonus on actions taken using the gear, so I set that as the lower bounds for a server. This can be accomplished by using a cyberbrain and three ghostrider modules where the forks inside have the appropriate skills. This doesn't match the statement that a server can run a large number of forks, so I added onto this basic setup using the 2+ access jacks that come standard with a cyberbrain. Cyberbrains have a Moderate cost, and ghostrider modules have a Low cost. The math is easier if you get 4 Ghostrider modules per cyberbrain (2,000 credits per "module", or 2 CP per "module"), and everything gets cheaper in the long run if you spend the High resources for a Specialized Hive that produces cyberbrains and again for one that produces ghostrider modules. That way you spend 10 CP at character gen, and when someone asks how much computing power you have in order to run a server, the answer is "more than enough". Of course, you'll get killed for creating a seed AI, but nothing is free.
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
root wrote:
root@How much does a server cost? [hr] An approximation I used was to look at what bonuses you can get from a server as a piece of gear. Good quality gear can give up to a +30 bonus on actions taken using the gear, so I set that as the lower bounds for a server. This can be accomplished by using a cyberbrain and three ghostrider modules where the forks inside have the appropriate skills. This doesn't match the statement that a server can run a large number of forks, so I added onto this basic setup using the 2+ access jacks that come standard with a cyberbrain. Cyberbrains have a Moderate cost, and ghostrider modules have a Low cost. The math is easier if you get 4 Ghostrider modules per cyberbrain (2,000 credits per "module", or 2 CP per "module"), and everything gets cheaper in the long run if you spend the High resources for a Specialized Hive that produces cyberbrains and again for one that produces ghostrider modules. That way you spend 10 CP at character gen, and when someone asks how much computing power you have in order to run a server, the answer is "more than enough".
That seems... overly complicated. I see no reason why running off a Server should give you any Mesh interaction bonuses. For one, the game doesn't give any bonuses. If the devs had intended for them too they probably would of said so. Second, if you where going to give a bonus +30 is a little extreme. +30 Mesh Quality is one step down from TITAN tech, “good” is a complete understatement. +10 might be more in line. There is also no reason to stat out Servers with Cyberbrains and Ghostriders. The difference between Ecto (Cyberbrain) technology and Server technology is significant enough that the GM can just hand wave it. If you want access to a Server then you either pay the subscription fees or you somehow get your hands on one, probably not through conventional means since they are the hardware equivalent of military grade weapons. Maybe a few major favours, some High cost bribes. EDIT: That sounded snarky. Instead, I will ask, what is your reasoning behind statting up Servers like that? They are already an ingame object, with explained statistics and abilities.
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root root's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
root@How much does a server cost? [hr] My reason for statting a server like that comes from my belief that the standard unit of processing might as well be a fork, but that's not supported by the game much. Gear bonuses are discussed on p296, and range from -30 to +30 depending on quality. As you pointed out, that takes nearly TITAN computing power, which is generally a no-no. However, using the Teamwork rules on p117, you can get the same bonuses by running 4 forks that are using Teamwork. 1 on the cyberbrain, and 3 in the ghostrider modules. The cyberbrain also comes with 2+ access jacks, so they can be configured like any computer network, treating each cyberbrain+3 ghostriders as a single computing node. It's a way for players to get a large "server" that does what they want by the game mechanics without approaching TITAN technology and all of the problems associated with that. I also like it because it's the base unit of the Entelechy Network, which is a criminal multiplicity that Arenamontanus gave me the idea of writing in his "Merging me, myself, and I" thread.
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Madwand Madwand's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
I don't think a server is the milspec technology a few people have suggested it might be. You can easily hack together something just by wiring together a few ectos -- that's the equivalent of a "server farm" in modern times. All you should need is a fabber and the instructions for making a couple kilos of computronium. With the "credit card" size of an ecto, I'm sure my synthmorph's skull has a lot of empty space up there. Having access to that kind of computation is not necessarily going to create a seed AI. It takes a lot more than that: quite a lot of psychosurgery is needed. Singularity seekers succeed in this from time to time. It's not hard to get access to a server via paid subscription or hacking, and an infomorph doesn't suddenly become godlike just for running on one. Easy access to x60 time frame would be handy, and I'm curious what controlling a morph in combat when you are sped up like that would be like. The "mental speed" augmentation gives one clue.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
A server is essentially defined as a socket listening program, or any computer hosting such software. You can basically turn any adequately-powerful computer into a server with the right software. While the mainframe legalities and access to powerful singular processors might put a damper into this, parallel processing (which is in its already-popular infancy today) makes producing a server still modestly easy. If a single ecto can be about the size of a playing card, then a deck is the equivalent to a duoquinquagenuple-core processor network... and should have the system resources necessary to run a decent-sized simulspace. An increase in processing power should be as simple as adding more ectos to the still-portable network. However, the largest majority of servers will likely fit within the expensive category, thus costing and containing about 80 times the price and processing power of a single ecto. This would provide ample power for a network while still not meeting the exorbitant requirements for running a seed AI (which are ran in processing blocks that measure in meters, and would be thousands, if not millions, of times more powerful than a single ecto).
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
Decivre wrote:
A server is essentially defined as a socket listening program, or any computer hosting such software. You can basically turn any adequately-powerful computer into a server with the right software. While the mainframe legalities and access to powerful singular processors might put a damper into this, parallel processing (which is in its already-popular infancy today) makes producing a server still modestly easy. If a single ecto can be about the size of a playing card, then a deck is the equivalent to a duoquinquagenuple-core processor network... and should have the system resources necessary to run a decent-sized simulspace. An increase in processing power should be as simple as adding more ectos to the still-portable network.
That’s all well and good, and works from a real world extrapolation method, but it is not the way the game world dictates that it actually works. The Core book explicitly says that Servers are oversized, hardly portable and bulky as hell. If we are going to discuss game rules, at least outside of the Homerule section, we must stick to as close to RAW as possible, otherwise we are just going to end up with multiple separate rules that people are trying to mesh together. Something about Servers are special enough in that they are dedicated hardware devices, and have to be designed as such. At least Servers that are capable of running Simulspace simulations are. Simply linking (x) Ectos together in a network gives no special bonuses, other than letting then run (x) number of Egos.
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nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
Or an EP server does something above and beyond our modern understanding (or perhaps, running more than one simultaneous eco is an exponential, rather than an arithmatic function). I'd tend to believe that you can create the equivalent of a 2010 server by doing that, where each server request is handled individually, and maybe even force a poor imitation of an EP server, but for whatever reason, the full, multi-user experience requires significantly more hardware. Alternatively, maybe it's just a problem of heat. The actual server hardware is the size of a deck of playing cards, but it requires a special, liquid nitrogen radiator system to avoid melting down.
Decivre Decivre's picture
Re: How much does a server cost?
CodeBreaker wrote:
That’s all well and good, and works from a real world extrapolation method, but it is not the way the game world dictates that it actually works. The Core book explicitly says that Servers are oversized, hardly portable and bulky as hell. If we are going to discuss game rules, at least outside of the Homerule section, we must stick to as close to RAW as possible, otherwise we are just going to end up with multiple separate rules that people are trying to mesh together. Something about Servers are special enough in that they are dedicated hardware devices, and have to be designed as such. At least Servers that are capable of running Simulspace simulations are. Simply linking (x) Ectos together in a network gives no special bonuses, other than letting then run (x) number of Egos.
Well, if that doesn't suffice, then I'll go with the same answer I come to with other setting holes: it's some sort of science-y explanation based our understanding of the universe in the future, which does not make sense today. The more likely explanation is that there are plenty of discrepancies in the setting that likely need to be fixed in future errata or iterations of the game (like continuity checks; I have a bag of issues with continuity checks). If you want some other specific advantage for servers that might make sense, you can always go with the concept of "greater than the sum of its parts". 80 times the price, 1000 times the power should suffice altogether. However, there should not be some special difference between a server and an ecto. All Turing complete computers are functionally capable of performing any and all of the same computing tasks that others are, albeit at varying levels of efficiency. Furthermore, I should hope that future computers should be at least as capable as computers of today... and if parallel processing is happening now, it should be capable of happening in 10 AF.
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