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Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

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Wed, 2010-09-08 06:40

babayaga

Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

Suppose a COG 25 infomorph resleeves into a Menton (which has a COG bonus of +10, and an aptitude limit of 30). The result is someone with COG 30 or with COG 35? In other words, is a morph's aptitude limit applied before or after the aptitude bonus, if any? I had always thought the limit would be applied *after* the bonus, so the answer would be COG 30. But the Psychosurgeon from the NPC pack, with COG 35 in a Menton, got me thinking that I may have been wrong all along. Sure, perhaps that Menton has the Exceptional COG trait, or perhaps it's just a typo... [Edited for typos and clarity]

Wed, 2010-09-08 14:33

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

You know, I always thought it was after, but reading through the character generation rules it does seem to suggest that it might be before. It has you buy your Aptitudes, then your Morph, and in the Morph entry it says that all bonuses provided by the Morph are calculated after everything else is done. So it seems to go: Purchase your Aptitudes Buy your Morph Apply the Morph limits Do everything else, drugs, implants, Psi-Sleights Apply the Morph bonuses. Hmm... that makes it very much easier to get a COG of 40 than I had first thought. Of course it also doesnt explain why a Reaper has an Aptitude Maximum of 40 when the book specifically says that no Aptitude may go above natural 30. That seems to suggest that you buy your Aptitudes, the bonuses are applied and then the limits are put in place. I think this requires a game dev to clear up. Its either a very small error in the NPC files or I have been generating my characters all wrong. *Edit, spelling

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Wed, 2010-09-08 13:42

babayaga

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

CodeBreaker wrote:
Hmm... that makes it very much easier to get a Cog of 40 than I had first thought. Of course it also doesnt explain why a Reaper has an Aptitude Bonus of 40 when the book specifically says that no Aptitude may go above natural 30.

Uh? The highest Aptitude bonus I see in a Reaper is +20 for REF (including the +10 from Reflex Boosters). By the way, I also re-read the various passages involved and I am starting to be really convinced that a) the phrasing does suggest that the limits apply only to the unmodified ego, that b) the assumption tends to make number crunching slightly easier and that c) the assumption is also more "natural" in that it allows you to treat the morph "intrinsic" modifications just as if they were standard implants/biomods rather than something conceptually different (which they really aren't from my point of view). But yes, this completely changes the way I have thought about morphs so far. I really wish a developer would clarify this (and ideally add the clarification to the errata).

Wed, 2010-09-08 14:32

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

babayaga wrote:
CodeBreaker wrote:
Hmm... that makes it very much easier to get a Cog of 40 than I had first thought. Of course it also doesnt explain why a Reaper has an Aptitude Bonus of 40 when the book specifically says that no Aptitude may go above natural 30.
Uh? The highest Aptitude bonus I see in a Reaper is +20 for REF (including the +10 from Reflex Boosters).

I meant Aptitude Maximum, I typed Aptitude Bonus. My mistake.

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Wed, 2010-09-08 17:45

babayaga

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

Oh, I see. Well, the way I see it, it's for the same reason why Informorphs have aptitude maximums of 40. There's the Exceptional Aptitude (Ego) trait that allows you to go all the way up to 40 in one aptitude.

Thu, 2010-09-09 04:05

kowalzcky

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

Hello all, this is my first post here, the first time i read the book, i had the same problem with the aptitude maximum; i dont remember exactly where i read it, but i think the aptitudes maximuns work this way: Your maximum is give by the morph, 30 for example, thats the maximun bonus your ego can have in that morph without implants or another morph bonuses. Then is the absolute limit of 40, no one can have an aptitude over 40, and you can reach it with morphs bonuses, even if the morph maximum is 30. For example, i have fury morph, with maximum aptitude of 30, then my ego can have a 30 in SOM for example, but the morph havea +10 SOM bonus, so when I´m sleeved in that morph I´ll have a 40 in SOM. Another example, I´m an ultimate in a reamde morph, my aptitude maximun is 40, so i expend alot of point and get a 40 in COO, even is the morph gives me a bonus its not going to count, the absolute maximum is 40. But anyways, is later i must resleeve in a splicer morph, without COO bonuses, my COO will be 30, due that the morph just have a 30 of maximum aptitude. Then is it the case i have purchased that merit that increase my aptitude maximum to 40, in that case I undertand that don´t matter in wich morph I´m sleeved, my aptitude could always be a "natural" 40. Just my niterpretation of the rules, and sorry for my bad english :)

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Thu, 2010-09-09 06:56

alpha

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

It's interesting how such, supposedly simple matter, can get very complex quickly. I also would like a clear statement from development, but my interpretation is as follows : p. 124 "Every morph has an aptitude maximum, sometimes modified by traits. This maximum represents the highest value at which the character may use that aptitude while inhabiting that morph, reflecting an inherent limitation in some morphs." "Some implants, gear, psi, and other factors may modify a character’s natural aptitudes. These augmented values may exceed a morph’s aptitude maximums, as they represent external factors boosting the morph’s ability. No aptitude, however, augmented or not, may ever exceed a value of 40." p. 135 "Each aptitude must be given at least 5 points (unless you take the Feeble trait, see p. 149), and no aptitude may be raised higher than 30 (unless you take the Exceptional Aptitude trait, p. 146)." These are the three key points as i see it. 30 is the limit for you ego alone, if you don't take Exceptional aptitude. 40 is the absolute ever limit, where there's no way beyond. It may be nitpicking, but "highest value at which the character may use that aptitude" seems to include the morph bonus. The menton's COG maybe at 35, but he is only able to utilize 30 because the brain of the morph is just not fit enough to extend beyond that. It's clearly said that reflex boosters for example may go beyond the morph's aptitude maximums, but not beyond 40. So it basically boils down to wether you treat the morph bonus as "implants, gear, psi, and other factors" or not. In my opinion it's not.

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Thu, 2010-09-09 14:21

Dry Observer Dry Observer's picture

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

alpha wrote:
It's clearly said that reflex boosters for example may go beyond the morph's aptitude maximums, but not beyond 40. So it basically boils down to wether you treat the morph bonus as "implants, gear, psi, and other factors" or not. In my opinion it's not.

Yeah, but you're a TITAN, so why should we trust you? :P ;) Seriously, good reading of the rules. I think you're right. I wouldn't mind an official ruling, but that seems workable as it stands. On the other hand, it [i]does[/i] raise the question of whether the Menton should have a higher attribute maximum, at least for Cognition, if nothing else. As it is, you're almost better off sleeving into a Remade or Reaper morph if your ego's Cog is particularly high (the former is the preferred choice for a number of my intellectual characters, and the latter is a preferred option in the midst of catastrophes). P.S. I was wondering when someone would take the TITAN tag... ;)

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Fri, 2010-09-10 02:01

kowalzcky

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

That more or less what i wanted to say. but i still think that the morphs bonuses can raise you aptitudes over the morph limit, but never over 40, maybe is just my interpretation, but makes sense. If you are a scientific or a soldier, you are going to have a high COG or SOM value, so probably the morph bonuses will be redundant, this way makes much more sense sleeving in menton or in a fury morph.

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Sat, 2010-09-11 17:54

#10

Dry Observer Dry Observer's picture

Re: Morph aptitude bonuses and aptitude limits

Here is Rob Boyle's [url=http://www.eclipsephase.com/aptitude-max#comment-3776]clarification[/url].

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