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Choosing to be an Individual

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Wayfinder Wayfinder's picture
Choosing to be an Individual
I think it would be fascinating to develop a society based strictly on the belief in "pure humanity," without any resleeving though augmentation could very well be adopted. Or.... Suppose an individual human being, born either as a flat or developed with superior resistances and abilities, refused to ever be resleeved or to have a Cortical Stack? He might have some distinct advantages and disadvantages (no fast transport).
Wild_Cat Wild_Cat's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
This society already exists in EP, it's called the Jovian Junta-- Er, I mean, the Jovian Republic. Strict bioconservatives, Flat morphs (not even splicers!) as the norm, most of which probably don't have backup insurance, let alone cortical stacks as they're not cheap (especially in traditional economy, which the Jovian Rep I recall to be the last place in the 'verse to maintain) and the population is poor, and of course an extremely repressive government. Yay, lovely place. What advantages do you speak of, other than a few extra CP at chargen and a certain sense of smugness that will vanish at the first bullet put through their head?
Come baguette some!
Wayfinder Wayfinder's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
Well, for one, there is the advantage of knowing who you are without any psychological hang-ups that can come from resleeving. Plus, there is the possibility that you are truly alive, whereas everyone who has been resleeved has been killed in some way, and all you're left with is a society of machines, which gives you a very distinct, philosophical advantage in that you have the sheer capability of abstract thought that it is believed no AI could ever achieve. Not that you're any smarter, but it's there nonetheless. And who's to say that when you are "killed" that your soul doesn't "resleeve" in a natural way (a form of reincarnation)? And as far as the Jovian Junta being a repressive regime, show me a regime in this game that isn't? You think the Titanians aren't? If I want to own a cornocopia machine and mass-produce my own goods and services and restrict access based on a customer's ability to pay, will the Titanians allow me to do that? Probably not. The least repressive regime I've been able to find would be the Extopians, who allow you to amass wealth and property as you see fit, though I can see where the need for an independent law that respected the rights of the individual and the rights of private property would prevent those that are particularly strong from undermining the neat libertarian approach. But at least there you can probably find more freedom to achieve more easily than you can in places where socialism is foolishly applied. Because I can see someone on Titan taking over quite a few of those machines with force, with nobody stopping them least of all the government.
Wild_Cat Wild_Cat's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
Wayfinder wrote:
Plus, there is the possibility that you are truly alive, whereas everyone who has been resleeved has been killed in some way, and all you're left with is a society of machines, which gives you a very distinct, philosophical advantage in that you have the sheer capability of abstract thought that it is believed no AI could ever achieve. Not that you're any smarter, but it's there nonetheless.
This falls under "a certain sense of smugness that will vanish after the first bullet to the head." You are listing perceived philosophical (theological?) advantages that only the character's faith recognizes. (also, on the abstract thought standpoint, we built the TITANs. After a few dozen cycles of recursive self-improvement, they were so far beyond us we considered the event a singularity -- and they killed 90% of us)
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And who's to say that when you are "killed" that your soul doesn't "resleeve" in a natural way (a form of reincarnation)?
Scientifically, 5000+ years of recorded human history with no hard evidence that it ever worked. Rules-wise, the statement that "If the character’s cortical stack is not retrieved and they have no backup, then they are completely and utterly dead. Gone. Kaput." (EP core rulebook, page 208)
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And as far as the Jovian Junta being a repressive regime, show me a regime in this game that isn't?
Of course they all are. EP is semi-dystopian after all. But the Jovian Junta is by far the worst of them, for two simple reasons: 1. Traditional (not even transitional) economy. Making it the only civilized place in the entire Sol system where you can, and many do, starve to death. 2. Enforced strict bioconservatist policy: no genefixing (born with a heart defect that won't let you see thirty? Tough luck), no uploading, no resleeving. Under the Jovian Junta, you are entitled to die exactly once, and that's it. I can't talk for everybody, but I'll take the worst excesses of hypercapitalism over those two anytime.
Come baguette some!
Iv Iv's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
Wild_Cat wrote:
I can't talk for everybody, but I'll take the worst excesses of hypercapitalism over those two anytime.
Seconded. But a believer in the soul will put such a high price on what you describe as smugness that they will gladly pay the price. After all, from their point of view, the Jovian Republic is the last bastion of humanity, who are they to say it is not good enough ? It beats the alternative ! I like this faction because it beats the one-size-fits-all villain. They just have a point of view about life that makes their actions completely logic even if they make them look like bad guys in the eye of the rest of transhumanity.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
I already said this in another thread, but in a society where immortality tech has been perfected, the conscientious objectors to immortality will be all be gone after 100 years. They will all have expired and only the immortals will remain. Pretty much solves that problem. And, personally, if my natural born body was some kind of superior eugenic fluke (which it ain't, let me tell ya), I'd still get gene therapy to make it that much better. Then, I'd just keep cloning that body and resleeving into it as needs be. As for the Jovian Junta, I've already voiced my dislike for them. Though, as Iv pointed out, they are an excellent fictional adversary. The Junta's paranoia towards transhumanism is logical, insofar as that logic is based on a false premise. Except, that from what we glean from the flavor text in the book it seems that the upper echelons of the Junta do indeed utilize transhuman technology for themselves in secret while letting their citizens live in suffering and hardship.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Iv Iv's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
browwiw wrote:
I already said this in another thread, but in a society where immortality tech has been perfected, the conscientious objectors to immortality will be all be gone after 100 years. They will all have expired and only the immortals will remain. Pretty much solves that problem.
Hmmm, having children sharing your point of view has been a common way to perpetuate memes in the past...
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
Children are read only? Hmmm, if that were the case, I'd still be a Christian like my parents instead of an atheist. In fact, humanity as a whole would still be very enthused with cave paintings and animism.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Iv Iv's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
You'll have to admit that the correlation between parents' and children's religion hints that there is more than random chance occurring. Every Christian couple only needs 2 children who share their faith for it to survive. And a lot of religions favor to have a high fertility...
puke puke's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
yeah, but youre not grasping that browwiw has a foolproof disproval of spirituality. once new generations are exposed to logical rebutals of theism, they'll shed all that hocus-pocus like so much 7-day creationism in the face of carbon dating or COBE EBL data. i mean [i]come on[/i], hes already said it in other threads.
browwiw browwiw's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
That veers distressingly close to an ad hominem attack.

"Let’s face it: Most of us are just here to shoot stormtroopers." - Gary M. Sarli

Zophiel Zophiel's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
OK, if we look at historical models its fairly clear that two things do not, in the long term, determine the infection rate of a given religious meme. Logic is the first. Put a bit simply, faith by its nature can be neither created nor destroyed through proof. The second is heredity. If 90% of people shared the religion of their parents throughout their lifetime religions such as Christianity, Mormonism (whether or not you consider it also Christian) and Islam would have spread much slower. Religion, including bioconservative ideals, are in no particular danger of extinction in EP until secular transhumanists are willing to compete for resources with religious humans through violence. They may not dominate, they may not spread as quickly, secular transhumanism may get more converts but it seems unlikely that any major sect would die out completely without deliberate persecution.
standard_gravity standard_gravity's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
Zophiel wrote:
OK, if we look at historical models its fairly clear that two things do not, in the long term, determine the infection rate of a given religious meme. Logic is the first. Put a bit simply, faith by its nature can be neither created nor destroyed through proof. The second is heredity. If 90% of people shared the religion of their parents throughout their lifetime religions such as Christianity, Mormonism (whether or not you consider it also Christian) and Islam would have spread much slower. Religion, including bioconservative ideals, are in no particular danger of extinction in EP until secular transhumanists are willing to compete for resources with religious humans through violence. They may not dominate, they may not spread as quickly, secular transhumanism may get more converts but it seems unlikely that any major sect would die out completely without deliberate persecution.
Religion surely defies reason (to paraphrase Nietzsche, faith equals not wanting to know what is true), but that does not mean that logic does not refute religion. I would submit that it is indeed difficult to combine religion (or, for that matter, faith in Santa Claus) with an [b]honest[/b], [b]principled[/b] logical mindset. As for (trans)human history, to me it is clear that the rise of Reason and the Enlightenment has in fact already refuted religion (with the notable exception of the US of A). There may be backlashes (modern spiritualism) and resistance (unenlightened Islam), but it is fair to assume that as long as our civilization progresses this tendency will continue. In EP, it is not only reason speaking to the devoted religionists, but also in-your-face materialistic backhanding. People may chose religion when the choice is (as it is today) one between certain death or uncertain immortality, but I think very few indeed would put their faith in God when the choice is one between uncertain immortality and certain immortality.
Wayfinder wrote:
And as far as the Jovian Junta being a repressive regime, show me a regime in this game that isn't? You think the Titanians aren't? If I want to own a cornocopia machine and mass-produce my own goods and services and restrict access based on a customer's ability to pay, will the Titanians allow me to do that? Probably not. The least repressive regime I've been able to find would be the Extopians, who allow you to amass wealth and property as you see fit, though I can see where the need for an independent law that respected the rights of the individual and the rights of private property would prevent those that are particularly strong from undermining the neat libertarian approach. But at least there you can probably find more freedom to achieve more easily than you can in places where socialism is foolishly applied. Because I can see someone on Titan taking over quite a few of those machines with force, with nobody stopping them least of all the government.
This is candy to my eyes :) However, I’m not sure I understand your comment about “independent law” in Extropian societies. One of the corner-stones of anarcho-capitalism is legal protection / regulation of contracts, tort and crime. The difference (apart from what in their minds constitute a tort and a crime) lies in enforcement, which of course will be private and not public.
[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/ext_userbar.jpg[/img] "People think dreams aren't real just because they aren't made of matter, of particles. Dreams are real. But they are made of viewpoints, of images, of memories and puns and lost hopes." - John Dee
benji benji's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
I'm very new (my wife gave me the core book last night as a gift, and I've only skimmed the history and various faction, etc. so far), but one thing that seems apparent is that in most of the societies in EP, there is some level of disparity between those who can and cannot afford the various resheathing and other advantages. This would likely lead to a religious emphasis on purity amongst those who couldn't acquire resheathing, most likely with an apocalyptic theology. Oppressed classes often create theologies of apocalyptic final reversal. In the end, the messiah will come and destroy the Babylonian state and restore the Temple. In the end, Jesus will come back, Rome will be punished, and peace will rein for 1000 years. In the end, Kali (who's worship tends to be particularly popular amongst poor, low-cast Hindus in Northern India) will destroy the corrupt world and it will start again. In the end, Jon Frum will come, and all of the cargo will be taken away from the white people and given to us. A logical outcome of EP's societies seems to be a cult which proposes that, in the end, God (or what have you) will appear and return us real people to our rightful place and punish these decadent transhumans for their sins. I would suggest that the Jovian society probably focuses on personal eschatology (it's okay that you don't get to live forever here, because you live forever in paradise which is better anyway right?). This is classic Marxist "religion as the opiate of the people" stuff, but other societies would see more activity from non-sanctioned cults with apocalyptic beliefs like those above. They would either be politically active (and potentially quite violent) or attempt to completely isolate themselves. Religions featuring universal immanent eschatology are far more likely to be catalysts for radical action or separatist movements then they are to reinforce the political power of those in charge.
nick012000 nick012000's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
They're also likely to be the kinds of people Firewall keeps an eye on and occasionally purges when they start trying to bring their apocalyptic visions about, be it through TITAN tech or stuff grown closer to home (any kind of starship drive that can get you anywhere fast enough to be interesting is a WMD, and non-sapient Grey Goo is well within the capabilities of transhumans to make). And, of course, the PCs could very well be the ones carrying out such a purge.

+1 r-Rep , +1 @-rep

Wayfinder Wayfinder's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
There are no such things as Memes.
Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
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Plus, there is the possibility that you are truly alive, whereas everyone who has been resleeved has been killed in some way, and all you're left with is a society of machines, which gives you a very distinct, philosophical advantage in that you have the sheer capability of abstract thought that it is believed no AI could ever achieve. Not that you're any smarter, but it's there nonetheless. And who's to say that when you are "killed" that your soul doesn't "resleeve" in a natural way (a form of reincarnation)?
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There are no such things as Memes.
Hmm...I dunno that first paragraph sounds an aweful lot like a collection of memes to me.:P Dispute the existence of memes all you want but so far there is more than enough proof of some kind of thought pattern ecology where ideas behave like in a biosphere, eating, stealing, integrating and making ideas extinct. In fact I would say that religion in the way it integrates other thought patterns and changes itself over time in order to gain converts and adapt to new realities is probably the surest example memes we got, ironically enough.
Wayfinder Wayfinder's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
The problem with the concept of memes is that they're philosophically and logically unsound. The underlying premise is that memes are ideas that are "infectious," to put it as the crack-pot that proposed it in so many words. The overall conclusion is that you cannot convince someone who's infected with a particular meme of the opposite, so you shouldn't bother trying. Ideas are ideas, and values are values, and human beings (real human beings, not the transhuman zombies that have to rely on "memes" to rationalize things) have free will to make judgments based on what they know and feel to be correct, even if they're wrong. What this philosophy does is inspire laziness on its adherents to believe that those who believe differently than they are simply going through a pattern in order to mitigate the idea of sentience (which would ultimately contravene their existence of a Godless universe in ultimate conclusion). One thing that cannot be mitigated away is Truth. Truth is not a meme, it is Truth. Truth is not relative, whereas the false premise of memes regards Truth to be relative. Truth cannot abide falsities, whereas memes, by definition, must. It is but one of many things that were established recently, what I call "new age" claptrap that disregards the wisdom that others have come up with over 4-5,000 years of history and thought that would regard the concept as rubbish, bred by the tolerance of the false. But, as far as Transhumans are concerned, if it's the way they can mimic sentience, by all means. Who am I to criticize a valid tactic?
Wayfinder Wayfinder's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
But this premise is also wrong. Why? Why would immortals want to reproduce? Why would anyone want to go through the pain of reproduction? Transhumanism is quite possibly the most materialistic form of worship conceived, and materialists are the least likely to reproduce because it interferes with their good times. Europe, right now, is aging faster than they can reproduce, and they're being overwhelmed by Muslims who do reproduce. Transhumans cannot reproduce naturally, by definition. Indeed, all they can do is make new sleeves. Unless they're both willing to undergo what is needed to produce a new, viable, living being, completely without a Cortical Stack, which they'd have to be willing to do and that would require getting past the notion of having to bear a child or do so through a test tube, and then someone would have to raise it, but then we'd get right back into Aldous Huxley's Brave New World, where the new world is slowly dying and disintegrating due to the lack of fundamental cultural character required for any civilization to sustain itself. This belief that humanity would die out in a hundred years is such nonsense that if the Junta were truly interested in preserving humanity as well as it can, they'd be immediately concerned with where they're going to house all the people they'd end up having. Because with good leadership that focuses on preserving Humanity, they'd end up having to develop ways of securing themselves while at the same time exploring what's beyond the Pandora's Gates. But first, the Jovians would redevelop their culture of humanity. They'd have to if to survive. Militarization would have to be necessary for the same reasons in Battlestar Galactica the fleet had to be held under sway by the military if the human race as they knew it were to survive. It's really no different. In this case, humanity is surrounded by machines who seek their ultimate destruction. So they'd have to develop an anti-Transhuman culture that sees them precisely as they are - Machines only, but potentially hostile. Combined with a Judeo-Christian ethic, and the Jovians would end up becoming the most powerful faction in the solar system within 20 years. Character combined with a sense of purpose would drive the Jovians to do two things - slowly reclaim the system through economic, military, and diplomatic means while exploring for a new world to settle on past the Pandora's Gates. So you see, the Jovians are not the villains here. They are the underdogs in one sense, but also the gods if you will. Being a Flat or a Splicer is far better than being resleeved into something because you then become a machine. You're no longer human. And in the end, without a soul, without the spirit that drives men to achieve and to excel, to overcome, the transhuman is already extinct. Because it's easily distracted by the new; it must seek out the sublime in order to satisfy an emptiness which it can never fill as a Human can. Immortality becomes a curse, a refuge for the coward, but also a moving tombstone for such cowardace.
Rhyx Rhyx's picture
Re: Choosing to be an Individual
Wow... just wow. Okay keep going, this is actually fascinating. I am reading a Jovian Republic recruitment pamphlet written exactly with the same kind of conviction and zeal that one from the Eclipse Phase universe would be written.
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So you see, the Jovians are not the villains here. They are the underdogs in one sense, but also the gods if you will.
I have never seen a better sum up of the Jovian propaganda campaign. The ones who will rise above against all odds, the chosen, humanity's true future and past that must be kept at all cost...the underdogs that will rise from the ashes. And it's obvious, the soul in it's beautifully unprovable vagueness is the keystone upon which the whole bioconcervative agenda is built and that no amount of logic can move. Wow, that's gorgeous. Really I'm impressed.