The Catholic Chuch (and other religions) and The Factors

Mon, 2012-09-24 17:32

#2

Libertad

The real-world Catholic

The real-world Catholic Church's stance on sapient extraplanar life is that if it exists, then they're creations of Gods and possess souls. Sapient aliens with advanced culture and mindsets are capable of free will. Aliens capable of choice can devote their lives to God. Now, the EP authors chose to have their counterparts to Christianity be ultra-conservative and unable to adapt with the times. the Catholic Church's place in the Jovian Republic will encourage this mindset in order to avoid government persecution. Personally, I'd have the Catholic Church's stance on aliens be more accepting. The Jovian Church might be forced to tow the "no alien contact!" bioconservative line in the Junta, but there'd be a lot of political back-deals and Bishops setting up programs to spread Jesus' teachings to the Factors. Many modern-day Catholics are conservative, but there's many who flaunt the line and adopt liberal views on religion. In my Eclipse Phase, I can see Catholic Bishops and Diocese with Uplift congregations, and churches set up in Anarchist enclaves. It wouldn't be a far stretch for missionaries to view the Factors as a blessing instead of the spawn of Satan. With the advent of Gatecrashing and potential new alien civilizations, there'd be a build-up in potential missionary and evangelical programs. The Catholic Church (and many Protestants) would teach their clerics about potential first contacts, fund programs for unorthodox language translators (like aliens who communicate via skin camouflage), and gatecrashing 101. Conversely, 10 years after the Fall can instill a great deal of fear and xenophobia. Many Catholics might adopt a hostile attitude towards the Factors, viewing their secrecy and recent appearances as a TITAN trick. And if not, there's always the possibility that they don't have humanity's best interests at heart. They might have souls and be potential converts, but many Catholics wouldn't want to take their chances so soon after the Fall. As for other religions, I can see Mormonism as highly adaptable to acceptance of Factors and other alien life. Mormon theology believes in a vast number of planets and universes full of intelligent life, with our planet being just one of many. In your "neutral territory" example, Mormons would eagerly join any religious discussions with the Factors or set up their own meeting.

—

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Erdrick/anarc_userbar.jpg[/img] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." ~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

Mon, 2012-09-24 18:05

#3

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Even better idea would be to

Even better idea would be to have a splinter of the Catholic Chuch-presumably on Luna or in Earth Orbit that follows doctrine based on ideas of Teilhard de Chardin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin If you are interested more on the ideas of the Church regarding alien lifeforms today: http://www.catholic.net/index.php?option=dedestaca&id=410 Interesting fragment:

Quote:
And like Father Funes, Lewis said it was possible that such beings, if they exist, might have fallen from a state of grace and in that case might be redeemed through God’s mercy. Lewis added that it was even possible that other beings with souls might be redeemed through Christ’s sacrifice for the redemption of humanity at Calvary, citing St. Paul’s comment in Romans 8:19-23 that the whole of creation is longing to be delivered from slavery and that this deliverance will occur only when Christians fully exercise the “glorious liberty” conferred on them.

This paper summarizes three positions on the state of alien sapients http://ieti.org/tough/books/succeeds/sectVp11.pdf There's also a book on the issue Christianity and Extraterrestrials?: A Catholic Perspective Marie George http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Extraterrestrials-A-Catholic-Perspect... Although she is extremely critical about the chance of alien civilizations being discovered, she does devote a chapter in her book about what the reaction from Catholic Church might be.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Mon, 2012-09-24 18:03

#4

Gnothi_Sauton Gnothi_Sauton's picture

I want a more real-life

I want a more real-life approach. Your ideas are a good contribution to my setting. Thanx! In this way there will be more intrigue within the Jovian Republic and the Anarchist habs. The Factors should have a big impact on the religious debates on the mesh, and as you said; give hope to many. That is how I run my campaign; there might be horror and darkness, but there is always hope. And The Factors actually have good intentions; they hate the thought of being alone in the universe just as we do. But understanding the concept of religion... I leave that open. The Factors doesn't seem to be interested.

—

Mon, 2012-09-24 18:10

#5

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

“The altar was at Jerusalem,

“The altar was at Jerusalem, but the blood of the Victim bathed the universe.” Nice quote. Catholics btw would make great fanatical Reclaimers.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Mon, 2012-09-24 18:18

#6

DKarn

I do agree with your

I do agree with your standpoint that sees the Christian faiths being accepting of alien life, however I think that the main reason for Christianity being in decline is due to the possibilities that being transhuman offers. The Christian religion is mainly about what happens when you die and the morals that you have to follow to be on the good side. Death is a thing of the past, so people really do not have Hell to worry about. "Sexual morality" is also a fairly archaic idea, in the time of EP, with the ability to go from male to female and everything between, not to mention uplifts and varying the apparent age of your morph while still being an aged human, and still have the same mind. I do think that there would still be many active Christians within the solar system and many of which would still be trying to spread the Word, but the core of the faith would be less focus on the ideas that the Faith represents today.

—

The mind: a great weapon and an even greater weakness

Mon, 2012-09-24 18:25

#7

Gnothi_Sauton Gnothi_Sauton's picture

Yes, I think so too. I'm not

Yes, I think so too. I'm not a religious person myself (I have a Buddhist view of life) but find it fun and exciting to elaborate with religion in games and can't ignore the fact that it is a big part of many humans mindset. Thereof my question here. I made up my mind that The Factors reply, if any, would be very, very short; "Irrelevant".

—

Mon, 2012-09-24 20:12

#8

Infomorph Kitsune Infomorph Kitsune's picture

I have to admit the part

I have to admit the part about Islam being the one that adapts readily to Transhumanity made me laugh. Because it's rather absurd... it's the authors concept so they can do whatever they want with it... but I couldn't help but find it funny. I can see the Catholic church readily adapting to Transhumanity and alien life. They after all, candy-coated all the old gods into saints so that pagans would convert easier. They now let women be... whatever a female priest would be (Priestess doesnt seem right)... or is that Lutheran? Anyway, Catholicism is very adaptable. Protestant Christianity, however, is not. These are the ones I could see sliding off into the morass of marginalization. They can't even admit that marriage hasn't been "traditional" for decades lol. Judaism, I could see adapting, not as easily as Catholicism, but I could see them doing so, they are already pretty secular, and if I remember correctly, some of the sects don't even believe that "you" live on after death. And Islam being accepting and modernizing? Ummm... at first I was laughing about it because they are not an accepting religion. But then I thought about all the failed suicide bombers and was like, they would take to uploading and downloading their minds like pigs to slop. Being a "veteran suicide bomber" would no longer be a humorous title! They would have a whole industry of supplying their zealots with nuke-morphs, a basic synth with a bomb implanted in the chest! Now, I don't mean to be offensive, I realize that not all Muslims are hateful bigots and hypocrites, just like not all Christians are fundamentalist whackjobs... some of what I posted was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

Mon, 2012-09-24 20:35

#9

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Islam is very tolerant

Islam is very tolerant towards the idea of alien life, far more than Catholic Church actually. One of the first verses of Quran are "And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and of whatever living creatures (da'bbah) He has spread forth in both"(probably it was inspired by Greek thought that was still in circulation in the Middle East at the time)

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Mon, 2012-09-24 20:43

#10

Libertad

@Informorph Kitsune:

@Informorph Kitsune: Your comments about Protestant Christians being unaccepting is an unnecessarily broad definition. Protestants, by definition, includes all non-Catholic Christians. You seem to be confusing the Protestant group as a whole with the American Religious Right. As to Islam, I agree in part with Extrasolar Angel. The genies of Arabic belief were capable of good and evil, of choosing Islam or rejecting it. Granted, the fact that the Muslim genies had to serve humanity could end up in unfortunate complications of a humanocentric worldview. Here's a relevant website: http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/islam-and-the-world/world...

—

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Erdrick/anarc_userbar.jpg[/img] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." ~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

Tue, 2012-09-25 04:38

#11

Quincey Forder Quincey Forder's picture

My version of the catholic church and Islam in EP

I see the Catholics as the most influncial religious group behind the biocons stances in the Jovian Republic, though it might change with the next Pope. Though I must admit that my deep loathing -not to say downright hatred!- of the Real World's version of the Catholic Church has me pronfundly biased against the EP's own. The fact that they survived any better than a fringe community among Brinkers was my only disappointment in Rimward. As for the Islam, I see it nearly wiped out of its fanatics, and into something akin to the Jews during the Renaissance. The survivors, mostly on Mars and among the Gatecrashing groups, have a new paradigm: God punished them with the Fall and only those who could adapt lived to repent and fulfill a new divine mission to find redemption for centuries of blind integrism and fanaticism: Find and establish a new Meccah. Think the Imam in Pitchblack. They can't afford to go suicide bombing left or right anymore, they have to play smart if they want to keep their holy memes alive, even if it meant rewriting their holy book almost cover to cover. I may be wrong but that's how I'll GM them all in my sessions of EP.

—

[center] Q U I N C E Y ^_*_^ F O R D E R [/center] Remember The Cant! [img]http://tinyurl.com/h8azy78[/img] [img]http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg205/tachistarfire/theeye_fanzine_us...

Tue, 2012-09-25 05:07

#12

Gnothi_Sauton Gnothi_Sauton's picture

You guys give me tons of

You guys give me tons of inspiration, views and ideas. I'm grateful! I understand what you mean with your dislike about the real world Catholic Church, but I can't see it as black or white. To become personal, I did a serious attempt to convert to Catholicism from Swedish Protestant Church ones, but found the authority of the Pope a problem for my free will and thought. After a long journey I became a Buddhist since it explains allot in MY life. What I found in the Catholic Church is that it is a strong, vital community that gives comfort and support in many ways to people, just like a strong Islamic community does. In the time of EP this need would be even stronger I guess. In hard times the rate of "church-goers" goes up where people can find answers, comfort and support. The Transhumans might not believe in every word that the priest/imam/Rabbi say, it is the community that is important. There would be some "nutcases" for sure but since there is no privacy, that individual or group would be marginalized and low of Rep. The most dramatic, and hilarious, would be if a Jewish, a Muslim and a Christian group would attempt to strike at The Factors independently without knowledge about the others plans. It would be a nice scene where all the religious fanatics aiming guns at each other in a classic "Mexican standoff" with Firewall in the middle trying to protect The Factors ambassador who just thinks "?".

—

Tue, 2012-09-25 12:11

#13

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Libertad and Extrasolar Angel

Libertad and Extrasolar Angel gave very good answers. One other thing to consider is the political ramifications. The RCC recognizes as much as anyone that there are costs to alienating (or embracing too closely) the Factors. I think we can all agree that the most rational, safest method is to embrace the Factors at arm's length; close enough to benefit from trade, but far enough to not get stabbed in the back. And necessarily we need more information. All of these coincide very nicely with missionary work. You send missionaries (with no secret knowledge in their brains) to form friendships, normalize relationships, win favors, and lay the groundwork for trade. Consider the work of the Jesuits during the opening of Japan as an example. Given the possible ramifications of publicly demonizing them, I imagine the RCC would work VERY hard to avoid that.

Tue, 2012-09-25 15:21

#14

Libertad

I got this from Wikipedia's

I got this from Wikipedia's article on Extraterrestrial Life, so my understanding is basic. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life Hindu belief incorporates the idea that there are many worlds (both physical and spiritual), with innumerable forms of intelligent life. The Jewish Talmud teaches that there are some 18,000 other worlds. The 18th-century text, Sefer HaB'rit, asserted that extraterrestrial creatures exist, and that some might well be intelligent. http://www.buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=476 As for Buddhism, the Buddha once said that there beings in the dark areas of space between the stars and worlds. It wasn't clear whether he meant immaterial beings like spirits, or physical entities.

—

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Erdrick/anarc_userbar.jpg[/img] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." ~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

Tue, 2012-09-25 15:26

#15

Gnothi_Sauton Gnothi_Sauton's picture

Woha!

Woha! This forum is a goldmine...

—

Tue, 2012-09-25 15:37

#16

Libertad

We're quite the storehouse of

We're quite the storehouse of knowledge.

—

[img]http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m65pmc5Pvh1r0iehwo6_r1_400.jpg[/img] [img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/Erdrick/anarc_userbar.jpg[/img] "Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it." ~George Bernard Shaw, 1856-1950

Fri, 2012-09-28 14:53

#17

Decivre

One thing I think should be

One thing I think should be noted is that the authoritative body of the church does not necessarily agree with the views of every individual group within the church. This is true whether you speak about Christians, Jews or Muslims. Liberal Catholics that are pro-gay marriage are common in the U.S. (the number of church-goers that use contraceptives that the church bans is even higher) despite the church's admonition of these things; the killing of witches is common in countries of Africa and the Pacific islands, despite the church's negative views of that as well. A religion's "views" tend to vary as wildly as its membership. So you will likely see some pretty broad views regarding the Factors. Even if the church authority is receptive to them, various groups within the church may not be so cool-headed.

—

Transhumans will one day be the Luddites of the posthuman age. [url=http://bit.ly/2p3wk7c]Help me get my gaming fix, if you want.[/url]

Mon, 2012-10-01 09:36

#18

Jane the Bane Jane the Bane's picture

Libertad wrote:@Informorph

Libertad wrote:
@Informorph Kitsune: Your comments about Protestant Christians being unaccepting is an unnecessarily broad definition. Protestants, by definition, includes all non-Catholic Christians. You seem to be confusing the Protestant group as a whole with the American Religious Right.

[nitpick] "Protestant" is NOT synonymous with "Non-Catholic". Only traditions that are somewhat tied to the Reformation qualify for the designation "protestant", and there are plenty of others that do not fit into that (admittedly already quite broad) pigeonhole: the Orthodox Church, gnostic Christians, Unitarians, all sorts of non-trinitarians, Mormons...[/nitpick] I think the problem with "book religions" is that they are ultimately tied to ancient texts penned by mostly pre-scientific societies that could only conceive of most natural phenomena in supernatural terms. They can flourish in spite of that, mostly by projecting new meaning into their texts and/or ignoring specific passages that clearly violate established facts. But more often than not, they turn fundamentalist, finding that if the facts disagree with their texts, the facts must be wrong.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/lost_userbar.jpg[/img]