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Brave New Worlds

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root root's picture
Brave New Worlds
root@Brave New Worlds [hr] Beta-forks are the most advanced egos that retain no legal rights in most of the system. The beta-fork of a transhuman is a significant improvement over any AI, as she can adapt and learn. Even in her reduced state, she tops all but the most puissant of flats. Skilled and unprotected, there is no better recipe for exploitation. What kind of discrimination would beta-forks face in an alpha-fork world? While many of the voices here can certainly count themselves as among the aforementioned "most puissant of flats", we still have more in common with the dispossessed and discarded beta-forks than we do with any transhuman element of Eclipse Phase. I see their position as somewhat hellish. They are sentient constructs, but they live in perpetual fear of the local Garbage Collector reallocating their memory space back to the system's heap. They cannot hope to match an alpha-fork without training, and they have to spend most of their effort on the struggle to maintain enough processor for cognition. I see them as the ghosts of discarded electronics; hijackers of pets with mesh inserts; gremlins with a hate-on for players and their fancy gadgets with such shoddy security protocols.
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Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Unless they've been left running a really long time, though, is that really so likely? I mean, considering the neural pruning process cuts out a lot of memory and such, would most betas even consider their lots in life that much, or indeed, anything beyond the task they've been given to perform? I fully admit that I don't have the deepest grasp of the level of difference between the levels of forks beyond the in-game mechanical functions, but I would think that the intentional hobbling of egos to form beta forks would be done specifically to prevent that sort of thing from happening in the first place.
root root's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
root@Brave New Worlds [hr] If the beta-forks had not been running for a very long time, it would not be very likely, no. I imagine that even after the neural pruning, given enough time to continue to grow and develop, the beta will regain self-autonomy. Admittedly, I'm pushing an ideology of self-determination in any being with sentience and reason, which may be rather more generous than should be assumed. What fascinates me about the concept of a free beta-fork is exploring the snails-eye view of the Eclipse Phase universe that they would have. They would struggle and thrive in the cracks and shadows between the lives and machinations of the alpha-elites, and may find a curious calm similar to the waters a few meters under even the most horrible of storms. It is also much easier to write from a perspective closer to our current mental capabilities, looking in, rather than try to fathom the uncanny impulses of the immortal demigods that most transhumans are.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
I think you might be overstating it, though. They're only a *bit* less skilled than their alpha (unless specifically handicapped further, of course). They're not orders of magnitude worse, right? Not snails-and-demigods. What they really lack is personal memories; they're a sort of Hollywood amnesiac. Regarding the legal rights issues, how does EP handle verifying that? I guess the alpha asserts ownership? One of my friends is playing 'escaped beta fork' in our EP game right now (with the original alpha totally eradicated). It's interesting.
root root's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
root@Brave New Worlds [hr]
Eclipse Phase p273 wrote:
A beta fork’s stats are determined as follows: Reduce all aptitudes by 5 (to a minimum of 1). This affects all skills as well. Likewise, this reduces LUC by 10 and INIT by 20. Active skills have a maximum value of 60. Moxie is reduced to 1. The Psi trait is removed. At the gamemaster’s discretion, other traits may no longer apply as well. Additional changes may apply as determined by the neural pruning test. Beta forks take 1 minute to generate.
Beta-forks have their memories pruned, and are hobbled as above. They have no legal rights, and are legal most places that aren't the Jovian Republic. Splicers have maximum Aptitudes of 25, and infomorphs have maximum Aptitudes of 40. AI are limited to max aptitude of 20, and max skill of 40 for Active skills, and 90 for Knowledge skills, cannot default, cannot learn, and are very, very bad at social interaction. Beta-forks are just the better skill-slavery option, if you can handle that pesky tendency to have a personality and a will.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Right, that's what I said: they're significantly-but-not-vastly worse than their alpha, so they're definitely not snails before demigods. They're something like 15-30% worse (at best, because they could be pruned deeper), with the full capacity to grow of an alpha (if they're not killed/merged). I'm still wondering about how you tell they're a beta, though. I guess some kind of psychosurgery could reveal pruning (?), but that might not be very conclusive. *shrug* That's only in the rare case that they 'escape', of course.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Yerameyahu wrote:
I'm still wondering about how you tell they're a beta, though. I guess some kind of psychosurgery could reveal pruning (?), but that might not be very conclusive. *shrug* That's only in the rare case that they 'escape', of course.
I would think that psychosurgery would reveal that there's been tampering/pruning that "would be consistent with the neural pruning process" or some such, but it would be beholden to the original alpha ego to claim ownership, or at least validate the original creation of the beta (assuming this was a legal fork and not an ego-napping). That's my best guess, anyway.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Yeah, that's consistent with my understanding, and I also just *like* it better. I like the idea that there's no 'real' difference between a beta and an alpha (not, 'a beta and *its* alpha'). Mr. Awesome's beta fork could well be smarter and more skilled than Mr. Lame's alpha/base ego. Also, how much is 'beta' a defined concept in EP, in-character? It looks like there's a very real and clear distinction between beta and delta: "Beta forks are created by taking a virtual mind state that is intentionally inhibited and filtering a copy of the ego through it. […] Delta forks are created by excising the ego’s surface personality traits and applying them to an AI template. In this case the ego’s memories are usually excluded entirely—it is easier to start with a blank delta fork and feed them the specific memories/knowledge they need." Between alpha and beta, though, the difference is just 'a beta is a limited, pruned version'. My thinking is that alpha is defined as 'perfect copy', and a beta is a copy that's limited in *any way*—even if that means just one removed skill, or one deleted memory? This is an edge case, but I'm curious.
blackknight blackknight's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
I have not given this issue nearly as much thought as some of you apparently have (and I totally get it--I dig exactly these sorts of "what if" exercises). I just had a thought and wondered if anyone would see it as relevant, or likely to affect the topic at hand. In the typical case, the beta forks are (more or less perfect) copies of someone who is apparently okay with the idea of forking themselves. Would this attitude, which presumably would carry over to the later forks, cause the forks to understand and be okay with their "lot in life," so to speak? (I'm excluding the case of a long-lived fork, which might grow more divergent and possibly change its mind). I'm just thinking that a fork might have the attitude "I'm not really me--he's me--I'm just a temporary tool to get something specific done for myself...the real me is in no danger and will continue on uninterrupted. Cool." It seems to me that more-or-less easy access to forking is a "toy" or "tool" the designers intend us to get to use to further our stories in the EP universe, just like nanofabrication or sleeving. I'm comfortable hand-waving away the fork angst and letting players use forking as a fairly reliable resource. (though I certainly get the rich possibilities for other kinds of stories if you play it differently)
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CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Personally, I have always maintained that part of the psychosurgery involved in making a Beta Fork is centred around installing a deep seated need to be "whole" with the Alpha, so that no matter the original personalities feelings towards the entire matter, the Beta will always seek out it's originator in the hopes of remerging. The only time that doesn't kick in properly (and so results in forks who Want To Be Free) is when someone fails their psychosurgery roll. It is also worth noting the stress your average Beta goes through during it's creation. Most people are not skilled psycho surgeons, so if you are not using a professional service to create your forks, there is a good chance you might fuck something up and induce a fair amount of stress just creating the thing. Then you have to instance the fork into a morph of some variety, almost certainly inducing even more stress (plus morph alienation). The average persons beta fork comes out with a worryingly high chance of moderate and possibly even major derangements. Sure, you can just delete it and start over, but I have always thought that doing so should have repercussions for most people. It cannot be easy on the old psyche to know that you have essentially killed legions of yourself, even if they are reduced versions. Disclaimer - I tend to add harsh consequences to over forking in my games, in an attempt to curtail Agent Smith problems, so almost anything I say is coloured by that.
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Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Yerameyahu wrote:
Between alpha and beta, though, the difference is just 'a beta is a limited, pruned version'. My thinking is that alpha is defined as 'perfect copy', and a beta is a copy that's limited in *any way*—even if that means just one removed skill, or one deleted memory? This is an edge case, but I'm curious.
Mind you, we're only discussing the definition of words here. But if you took me, and removed nothing but my skill at shooting rifles and solving a rubik's cube (two entirely hobby-related activities), I'd still consider what was left as "me", and as such an alpha. You could also take out several chunks of my memory and still have "me" left, which I'd also call an alpha. In my definition, for it to be a beta there'd have to be an across-the-board pruning of abilities and memories. Of course there's a big, ill-defined borderline area where it is hard to tell if it is an alpha or a beta, but that's no different than any other attempt at using a limited amount of labels on a non-discreet set, like say labelling people according to weight with only obese-overweight-normal-underweight-skinny to work with.
Lilith Lilith's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
CodeBreaker wrote:
Personally, I have always maintained that part of the psychosurgery involved in making a Beta Fork is centred around installing a deep seated need to be "whole" with the Alpha, so that no matter the original personalities feelings towards the entire matter, the Beta will always seek out it's originator in the hopes of remerging. The only time that doesn't kick in properly (and so results in forks who Want To Be Free) is when someone fails their psychosurgery roll.
That makes heaps more sense to me. I think that's about how I've considered the process, only you were able to put it into words far better than I. :) Plus, I like that you've given it a mechanical aspect, which again makes a great deal of sense to me.
Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
SmokeSkin: Yeah, it's tricky. From the book, in out-of-character terms, I think an a beta is anything less than an alpha; an alpha is a perfect copy. It's certainly true that, again OOC, a beta has much more sweeping creation rules and limitations. In-character, I wonder where the line is between an alpha with some changes (psychosurgery being pretty common), and a 'high-quality' beta. Either way, I still don't think you could tell them apart in 'forensic' terms, without comparing them to each other. CodeBreaker, I always had in my head the idea that a beta almost always knows it's a beta and accepts it happily, but I couldn't find where in the book I *got* that idea. :) Does anyone know, or am I crazy?
CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
I thought the exact same thing, I am sure there was a paragraph in Sunward that said that, but I cannot for the life of me remember where. Ego Hunter deals with Betas doesn't it? Maybe in there? Don't have it on this reader, so I cannot check.
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root root's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
root@Brave New Worlds [hr] A beta is an alpha with a few memories removed, perhaps some additional psychosurgery, and a bit of blunting on Aptitudes. If we start out with an alpha who lives as an infomorph and does nothing but work on Aptitudes until they are all at 40, then their beta fork is still a scary monster with Aptitudes of 35. This, however, seems to be an unlikely case. More reasonably, we have the "average" character at character generation with their points spread equally among Aptitudes to have them all at 15. When the beta fork is made of this character, their Aptitudes are reduced to 10 across the board, a 350 CP reduction. A given character at character generation has 1000 Customization Points, plus the 1050 CP worth of Aptitude points, 5 CP worth of money, 5 CP worth of Rep, 80 for Native Language, and something like 40 CP for Background, and 40 for Faction. 2220 CP total, so the Aptitude reduction is about 15% of their total. I guess that it would be overstating the case to say that they have a snails-eye view of the world. A 15% reduction in total ability accompanied with an arbitrary removal of memories should not be taken too lightly, though. In a society where expertise is the only defining characteristic, a 15% reduction completely removes the beta from the top of any field. They are stuck as second-class citizens, even beyond the legal restrictions they face. But even then, they still outperform AI quite handily, and would be the preferred tool for any thankless task that needs more skill and oversight than an automated program could provide. They would still be the most exploitable class of transhumanity.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Yes, I agree with your general point. I just wanted to tweak your poetic analogy. :) I think there's another tweak to be made: as you point out, (and using my previous wording) the beta of Mr. Awesome is better than the alpha of Mr. Lame. So I'm not sure it's correct (*leaving aside* legal status issues) to say that a beta is a beta-class citizen, solely in terms of skills and ability. Obviously, it's a huge 'if' to ignore the very important legal status issues, though; I do agree that betas (however skilled) are second-class in that framework. Let's consider the plight of the standard beta. They are almost always time-limited, right? Forked for a specific task or for that 4 hour limit, as I understand things. They're also 'just copies' of their creator/owners, the main alphas. In that sense, they're not really slaves as we'd use the term. They certainly are exploited—that's their raison d'etre. Is their state of exploitation distinct from the various kinds of infomorph indenture? At least the betas predominantly are fleeting (and possibly re-merged, I'm not sure), while the indentures are in for the long haul.
root root's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
root@Brave New Worlds [hr] Ignoring the legal status issues, a beta-fork has very little to differentiate it from an indenture. There is the neural pruning process, but the flensing of memories and skills is mostly a (much) more extreme version of what is used in psychotherapy. A standard beta is supposed to be time-limited (anti-trust laws forbid anything else on many habitats, but that's back to the legal issues), but there is nothing intrinsic to the beta-fork that enforces that time limit. For all intents and purposes, when removed from a social and legal framework, I would argue that betas are in no way different from any other slightly damaged ego. Given the widespread trauma most egos have suffered due to the Fall, I might even go so far as to say they do not necessarily have any differences from any other citizen. The reason I find them to be so interesting is precisely that. They have no defining features other than social norms and legal frameworks that declare them to be different or substandard. Inside of that social and legal framework, they are more valuable than indentures (as they have no rights), and do better work than AI's (which are equivalent to a delta-fork, I believe). They are beta-class by definition only. I consider this to be fertile grounds for making interesting stories where I might be able to come up with a sympathetic character (for once). Maybe that's just me though; there are plenty of fertile grounds for creativity in this setting.
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Yerameyahu Yerameyahu's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
Cool, sounds like we're on the same page. :) I think we can assume there are multiple 'beta rights' groups out there already, just as there are Mercurials, etc. They probably run the gamut from 'no betas, they're cloning/murder/whatever' to 'betas are alphas, betas are people'. Fertile ground indeed.
root root's picture
Re: Brave New Worlds
root@Brave New Worlds [hr]
Yerameyahu wrote:
Cool, sounds like we're on the same page. :)
Well, we are now at least. You convinced me. It seems that as far as the Inner System is concerned, betas shouldn't be used in any way that might challenge cultural norms, and they get to be little more than glorified productivity enhancement software. The Jovian Republic's banning them as threats to human dignity (disclosure: I'm making this up as I type), based on Kant's definition of dignity. That definition declares that dignity is an intrinsic quality of humanity, because there is no way to put a price on a human life. This is because there is no way to know the value of a human, and their values cannot be compared because every human is unique. Forking removes uniqueness, and therefore anyone who forks cannot be thought of as having basic human dignity that must be respected. Outer System and beyond the gates? I'm guessing that the attitude is either "Fuck it", "Why Not", or "There are too many very opposing viewpoints for us to exclude it". There is also the pragmatic benefit of having workers that can't remember past abuses, and having skilled labor that can be copied to the limit of available resources can be a matter of survival. So, yea, I think you are correct in the many different beta-rights groups. It might be fun to sketch a few out.
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