A very real problem in the perception of EP bioconservatives as caricatures is that reality IS stranger than fiction. Real events often sound unrealistic if they are presented as fiction. Look at the real world. People who believe that Earth was created 6,000 years ago, that humans walked with dinosaurs, that try to get evolution theory teaching banned? Seriously? A major religion that has a really big issue with contraception to the point they actively try to block the use of condoms on a continent plagued by a deadly STD? Suicide bombers who thinks an explosive vest grants them instant access to heaven and 72 virgins? It would sound utterly ridiculous, if we didn't know it was true. I invite you to read this hilarious account of how a WW2 documentary is unrealistic: http://squid314.livejournal.com/275614.html A few more bioconservative memes from today's world: - Doing things the hard way, studying, practicing, exercising self discipline, working hard is noble, while talking shortcuts with augments is weak (a common right wing argument against for example Ritalin against ADHD) - High-end morphs and augments are only available to the rich, giving them more means to oppress the poor in a competitive society, creating A and B teams (common left wing argument against progress) - AIs and augmented transhumans "steal" jobs from people (common labor union argument)

"Is technology evil? Certainly not. But is technology inherently dangerous? It is if used incorrectly. "Look, I know plenty of advancements we've made are great. I'm not arguing we return to the stone age here. But think back to what we know of Earth before all this happened. Far history, way before the Fall. "Would anyone then have argued that it would be a [i]good[/i] idea to give nuclear technology to under-developed countries? No, of course not. It's a dangerous science, and one that a society needs to be prepared for before they wield it. And that's not just some value judgment of a culture, mind you. I'm talking infrastructure, availability of qualified scientists, that sort of thing. And yes... a certain maturity of society, where people won't feel so inclined to use that power destructively. "I just don't think we were ready. That's what I'm saying. I'm not sure what it was, but anyone who remembers the Fall should be able to see that there was something we were lacking. Maybe we overall raced ahead too fast, and nearly became that part of the Drake equation about civilizations that destroy themselves. Or maybe there were just a few technologies we weren't ready for, as a people. "The problem is, we don't [i]know[/i] exactly what we did wrong. It might have been everything, or just one thing. If it's just one thing, we can hold off on that right? But what if that one thing is nanofabrication? Or uploading? Or the mesh? What if those technologies that you are still using every day to re-sleeve and mass-produce and communicate as you wish are the technologies to blame? Every day you're courting another disaster. It's like a large asteroid impact, you only need one to be the end of a place. "That's just it. We don't know. We don't know what went wrong. So, forgive me for saying this but: isn't it better to go back to a stage we know we could handle, and maybe... eventually... figure out our missteps, than it is to just go on like nothing happened and roll the dice with human survival? "Besides, compared to all of human history before we're doing great for ourselves. I'd rather just accept that, and be sure we'll continue as a species."

nezumi.hebereke wrote:

The argument for bioconservatism is actually very straight-forward, and the default that most people go to when they encounter transhumanism. This is part of why I'm alright with how the Jovians are generally portrayed in the setting. The argument is as such: If I make a copy of myself, that copy is a new person. If I die and the copy lives, I still died. If I die while the copy is being made, this is no different than if I died after the copy is made - dead is dead. Ergo, egocasting and transferring morphs (when not spinning off a fork and leaving the prime alone) is suicide. If you are religious, you also add the concepts of a soul. How is a soul created? If you believe that souls can only be created by God, that means forks have no souls - what you've created is a biological automaton which can feel and suffer, but never know true redemption (good job, ass). Even if you don't believe in souls, it's easy to see the risk of forking. In fact, Aremantourous has written quite a few pieces on why forking will eventually extinguish life as we know it in favor of monocultures of individuals. Ironically, the Jovians are the greatest proponents of diversity.

I wouldn't call the Jovians the "greatest proponents of diversity". They may favor unique individuals over forks, but they still hate infolife, uplifts, and anti-conformists of all types. Besides that, this is basically solid. The bio-conservative standpoint on re-sleeving was likely far more accepted before the Fall, but those who embraced the new technologies survived the Fall in greater numbers than those who didn't, shifting popular opinion (plus fewer people wanted to take the stand that uploaded people were simulations of people after such a large portion of the population were forced to ego-cast or default to back-ups). Furthermore, when you are stuck in a robot body and notice that you are conscious (and not some P-zombie) with all your memories, you tend to take the stance that you are you, not a simulation.

thezombiekat wrote:

Part of the problem with the junta is that it is bioconservitive and generally conservative in other ways. For example, neonatal jean fixing to prevent inherited disease dose not invoke the continuity problems of resleaving. Neither dose implanting cyber and bioware to improve quality of life, non weapon implants are technically legal but require permits even the rich can’t afford. I can understand concern about the rampant underground production of nanobots but in the junta only the rich can get access to curative nanotech medicine because healing vats (that can cure cancer in half an hour) are not even available in most large hospitals. It shouldn’t be hard to secure a couple of nanobot factories (after all they do that already) and place regularly audit hospital stocks, its not like those specific nanobots are easily retasked anyway.

Bioconservatism is more than just a description of the Jovian Junta. There are plenty of non-fascist biocons in the solar system.

@ nerdnumber1 This is true but they are merely portrayed as misguided people who doom themselves to death, not a threat to others. @ Baalbamoth The Jovian brain peal uploads don’t get resleaved, they become infomorph retirees, in a kind of simulated afterlife. My understanding was that most jovians where fall evacuees that got out on the ships. They did not take significant infugees. Only one of the detailed NPCs that has high rank is not in his original body The Jovians are an interesting dichotomy. The majority of people are catholic and the Pope is a buicon fundie but the apparatuses of government and the military to which it is closely tied are tightly regulating any tech that could be used to cause serious harm, social change or threaten their control, hell they ban muses and they where around for decades before the fall. So the junta has all the restrictions of a techno fascists state and all the restrictions of a biocon fundie state.