Tiberia wrote:

I am new to EP. I've been reading through the setting, and other then being impressed and amazed (I have regularly told people that this is my new favorite setting) I find that the Jovian Junta feels like a strawman. There doesn't seem to be any positive traits for them. Many of the details about them feel like needless jabs and the American Right wing of today.

To someone who is bioconservative, who believe in the wisdom of repugnancy and (their to me strange idea of) human dignity, who believe that transhumans have souls that don't transfer with resleeving, who believe that certain tech is inherently dangerous, the junta has all the positive qualities and the rest of transhumanity has it wrong. This is not a needless jab at the American Right wing, this is an honest representation of their non-moderate wing and their brethren in many other countries.

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The sidebar about Reagan cylinders says they are inefficient and worse versions of O'Neil cylinders, but never says anything about why they are more inefficient or worse. here is the text from the book

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The standard O’Neill cylinder is a proven habitat type that can be found all across the solar system. Several years prior to the Fall an American aerospace consortium backed primarily by Raytheon rolled out a new cylinder design, christened the Reagan cylinder as a nod to the resurgence of interest in the historical president’s economic doctrines. Reagan cylinders differed from O’Neill designs in that they were built within hollowed-out asteroids or moonlets, usually mined out, using the rocky exterior as a layer of radiation shielding, a requirement for the Jovian system. In the years since, Reagan cylinders have become infamous for their inefficiency. Environmental and power systems are notoriously sub-par, subject to frequent failures. Brownouts, blackouts, and septic contamination are a common state of affairs on these “sarcophagus” habs

I looked into it and couldn't find anything. There was this forum topic ( http://eclipsephase.com/reagan-cylinders ) discussing it, but the main theory seemed to simply be that they were worse because the Junta shuns advance biotech, and nanotech. The main issue I see with this theory is that the book seems to imply that the Reagan cylinders are inherently worse in design, so that even with the advanced technologies they would be worse. The whole thing feels like a needles political jab.

They do have a problem with a lot of the technologies normally used being restricted. Current USA: how efficient is the EPA? Can lobbyists bribe politicians to get away with pollution? How is it going with investments needed in aging parts of the infrastructure? Is the Veterans Affairs and other parts of the public health care system running smoothly and using the best technologies available? How are the Republicans typically voting on such issues? Reality is stranger than fiction. If you didn't know about bioconservatives, religious extremists and lobbyism beforehand and saw it in a movie, you'd go "pffft, no one would do that".

Can you name any positive aspects about North Korea? I'd rather live in the Jovian Junta than in present day NK. At any time in the history of humanity there always have been terrible, horrifying bunches of criminals mistreating their fellow humans in incredibly cruel ways. Read this UN report (http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/CoIDPRK/Pages/ReportoftheCommission...) and you will suddenly realize a lot of 'positive' aspects about the Junta compared to how bad the real world is.

One plus is that they're one of the more unlikely factions to accidentally pose an X-Risk. Sure, they're aggressive and domineering, but at least they stick with conventional weapons.

Smokeskin wrote:

obsidian razor wrote:

My only issue with the Junta is that it's caricaturesque. The way they renamed the moons of Jupiter, the references to US political right-wing figures... it's kind of absurd.

Anymore absurd than a lot of the present US warships are named after past presidents?

Fair point :P Though I guess it's weirder cause the Junta only has testimonial continuity with the US goverment and Chile's military.

What makes the Junta evil is not it's backwardness... that just makes them backwards... It's the fact that their leadership is completely corrupt and basically lives with all of the advantages that they deny to their people so they are "the last bastion of humanity". The sad fact is that this has a lot of parallels to many modern day dictatorships or ultra-conservative states. No need to go to North Korea, the sultan of Brunei is infamous for establishing a quasi-sharia on his country, instituting death by stoning to impure women and at the same time he flies in Russian prostitutes for his personal harem...

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana Despite the obvious political ideologies of the authors and caricature that is the Jovian Junta, I still do not even remotely view them as "evil." In fact, they may be the smartest faction in the game. I think many players often fail to remember that Eclipse Phase is basically a horror setting. It was a mere 10 years earlier that 95% of the human race was killed by technological and alien horrors that humanity still does not understand. The survivors still do not know the TITANS real motives, why they stopped, where they went or if they intend to return. Instead of ensuring that humanity is protected from another extinction-level event, particularly now that we are so vulnerable, the bulk of humanity is carelessly and with selfish abandon playing with technologies, both biological and mechanical, that could easily lead to our doom. If this wasn't bad enough, we're also wantonly exploring alien worlds even after discovering the death of other species and interacting with aliens with mysterious motives and superior technology. Heck, the very reason for Firewall in the game is to protect against the X-risks caused by humanity failing to learn from its mistakes. The way I see it, the Jovians are the only major faction that's managed to learn any lessons from recent history. They realize the risks and are taking necessary precautions. They're not Luddites or gratuitously sadistic, they're simply cautious, prudent and justifiably worried. The issue of sacrificing freedom for security (and the knock on contemporary American politics) is at the core of the Jovian Republic. However, after facing near extinction, not primarily focusing on security and safety is unforgivably reckless. Many posters also allege an excessive level of corruption or greed in the Jovian government. I do not see that supported in the text. All the factions have their dark sides, and the explicit descriptions of the Jovian Security Council in Rimward demonstrates that the members are believers in the Jovian ideology and care about both their citizens and the survival of the human race. The Jovian populace are also believers and are described as generally content, albeit frightened with very good cause that their fellow "humans" will cause the return of the TITANS, or worse! The authors are obviously using the Jovians to dig at America's corporate power, military strength, religious belief and conservatism. However, what happens if the TITANS return or Firewall fails to stop some X-risk, and Transhumanity again falls victim to their technology, greed, ambition or carelessness? Ironically, in a parallel to WWI, WWII and the Cold War, where the world looked to the USA for leadership and security, I would imagine that many transhumans would seek the assistance and protection of the Jovians, the one polity with the military might, foresight and planning that has the best chance to survive. In light of the above, I was most amused by the "Morph Conspiracies" fiction in the Morph Recognition Guide. The exchange details how the TITANS may have previously altered and interfered with humanity's morph designs to render us susceptible to their influence and domination, and that these subtle actions may be continuing into the present. If true, those naturally conceived and "inferior" Jovian flats may be the only people standing if and when the TITAN's return.

Some people keep saying that the junta is a caricature and the authors' dig at at a political ideology wing they don't like. I'm curious, if you wanted something like the Republican Tea Party in space, what would you change?

The Jovians are also divided among themselves with many scientists and doctors who wish to utilise nanotech to reduce the suffering of their fellows. Hardly amoral monsters without redeeming qualities. To say nothing of the fact that while ruthless and abominable states like North Korea exist, there are still those within who are still human people who are operating within the parameters of their situation. Just because some people have made bad or immoral decisions doesn't mean the entire faction is "evil." To say nothing of the fact that the authors never explicitly mention good or evil, simply assign numerous memes to a particular faction (which occurs naturally when people form polities, cultures, and clades with those who have complementary memes) and while the authors clearly have biases (and have even recently explicitly announced them), they leave plenty of room in the text (to say nothing of our ability to alter the setting according to OUR whims and beliefs) about whether the Jovians are despicable or just following a different course. The numerous and myraid threads about the contentious Jovians prove that we all have our own ideas regarding the Jovian Republic (calling them the Junta is to accept the partyline of the Autonomists (and Hypercorp?), which is incendiary propaganda) and I think it is great that they have created so dynamic and intellectually challenging of a faction for us to debate the pros and cons over.

obsidian razor wrote:

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

If the TITANs come back, transhumanity is doomed. The Junta will survive about five hours longer than Locus, half an hour hour longer than the Titanian Commonwealth, and two hours less than Mars. No amount of military preparations on the level of Jovian thinking can stand up to the kind of things that unfettered, exponentially-advancing intelligences can devise. Frankly, they're not worth worrying about. If the TITANs, or even any one TITAN, decides to come back and finish what they started, nothing will stop them; not Project Ozma, not Firewall, not the Autonomist Alliance, not the Planetary Consortium, not the Lunar-Lagrange Alliance, not the Ultimates, not the Argonauts, not the Promethians, not the Morningstar Commonwealth, not the Factors, and not the Jovian Junta. Not even all of the above combined. So you may as well not even bother prepping for the return of the TITANs. Transhumanity prepping for the return of the TITANs would be like the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago prepping for a full-scale war waged by the United States of America for the single and sole purpose of exterminating every Trinbagonian man, woman and child.

Very well put. Let us remember that the only reason humanity survived the TITANs the first time was because of the Prometheans. Yeah, security against the TITANs or exurgents is not really a plus on the Republic.

Although the Prometheans assisted humanity immensely, largely by containing the exsurgent virus, humanity survived only because the TITANS stopped waging war and disappeared. (EP, p. 354-55). Humanity was simply "lucky." I agree that if the TITANS ever returned as before the Fall, humanity would be doomed. However, the precautions instituted by the Jovians may mean the difference between survival or extinction in the event of a more limited TITAN return, release of some dormant TITAN technology, belligerent aliens, or the more common human-originated X-risks, anything from nanoplagues to antimatter terrorism. I like to think of the Jovians as a sort of "control group" for humanity. Just in case we really, really screw-up, the Jovians are our resent button for "Humanity 1.0" safely ensconced in the wireless, hardened bunker.

ShadowDragon8685, respectfully, no one would believe we were reading the same entries on the Jovians in the core book or Rimward. Even in the core, the Jovians are not described as incompetent Luddites, particularly with respect to martial matters. Bioconservative most definitely does not equal reckless and stupid. The Jovians have access to the same technology as everyone else, they simply regulate it much more strictly for general use. Not only do they explicitly have the largest and most advanced space fleet and defense forces, their military is highly organized and led largely by old-world military officers who have survived TITAN engagements (most in their original bodies!). The Jovians also have access to ample resources and a loyal and motivated population inured to sacrifice and military life. Besides the fact the many Jovians are splicers, they have a large and growing population, and virtually all have served in the military, a more advanced morph will be of only slightly greater benefit in combat among ships or against habitats. Your fancy morph will survive asphyxiation and decompression a few moments longer while his AA militia forces are routed and his habitat breaks-apart. The Jovians are undoubtedly the "Space Nazis" of the EP setting. However, never forget that Nazi-esque groups as villains is a common trope not only because they are personally vile individuals who elicit little sympathy, but because they are powerful, competent and very scary.

obsidian razor wrote:

I'm gonna agree with ShadowDragon8685 here. While the Jovians are not luddites or amish, they are reticent to implement many technological advantages that the other factions have. The aforementioned fully-infomorph crewed ships are just one of many ideas bouncing on my head. Sure, the Jovians use resleeving in dangerous or military jobs, but I would imagine most of their rank and file military would be against, plus many of their officers. I actually see them less and less as space nazis and more as space North Korea, in the sense that they put a great show outwards but the moment you examine everything carefully you realise they are basically a paper tiger. In the even of a system-wide war, it's unlikely that they would get the upper hand anywhere, but all factions would be wary of the damage they could cause before going down, hence why everyone just prefers to keep their distance and let them do their thing in peace.

I would note victory is not simply a matter of an all infomorph crew or similar purported technological advantage. Rather, the relevant issues are the skill and experience of the crew, the quality of the ships, and the military planning and cunning employed both before and during battle. How many quality battleships does the AA field and are the egos of their population anywhere near as experienced in military matters as the Jovians? The size, sophistication and lethality of the Jovian Fleet and officer corps vastly exceeds any opposition. The fact that the defender's original morphs would be in their home and they had muses with better porn XP when the Jovian Fleet arrived would be of little solace as the missiles ripped through their habitat. You also assume that the entire AA would present a unified military opposition. Other than possibly the Titanians, the autonomists are hardly a cohesive and agreeable bunch, nor do they possess the large scale equipment, resources or experience to wage a sustained war. It's also very possible that in a military engagement with the AA, the PC may well back the Jovians. Although I do not agree with the comparison of the Jovians as space North Korea, remember that the DPRK, even starving and with few resources, is a nuclear power with an army consisting of millions and artillery that could level Seoul in short order. What would NK be like with ample resources, competent leadership and a fighting spirit stirred by the belief that they were the last "real humans" fighting extinction?

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All of these things are in the books. Why is it that the negative things about the autonomists are ignored?

I imagine most people do because while the anarchist have their shortcomings, they are obviously framed as the "good guys" in the setting. I personally see nothing wrong with this. The anarchists are, in my perception, well written as ideological good guys, but they have massive shortcoming compared to everyone else, which stops them from being complete mary-sues.

branford wrote:

I would note victory is not simply a matter of an all infomorph crew or similar purported technological advantage. Rather, the relevant issues are the skill and experience of the crew, the quality of the ships, and the military planning and cunning employed both before and during battle. How many quality battleships does the AA field and are the egos of their population anywhere near as experienced in military matters as the Jovians? The size, sophistication and lethality of the Jovian Fleet and officer corps vastly exceeds any opposition. The fact that the defender's original morphs would be in their home and they had muses with better porn XP when the Jovian Fleet arrived would be of little solace as the missiles ripped through their habitat.

The point of informorph crews is not so their morphs are safe back at home. The point is that you can accelerate their minds - possibly up to 60x normal speed if we assume they use the most cutting edge computers and software on their ships. Know what that would mean? Every second you have to react they have a minute, every minute you have to plan they have an hour. The advantage that brings cannot be overstated. And that's before we get to any mental augmentations. Remember that 10 cog is a regular human, 20 cog is the smartest unaugmented human to ever live. They can field people up to cog 40. Such a being could potentially, with the right training, be a better strategist than anyone who has ever lived.

Smokeskin wrote:

And they're a lazy bunch that work 4 hours a day

I'm pretty sure that's 4 hours a week. Though that's a minimum number - people who like their jobs (or want to rack up some extra rep) can work more. I'm liable to see that as a good thing though. Hard work is not valuable for its own sake - it's only valuable in the good it brings. If society can get by while giving everyone an decent quality of life, decent medical care, etc while giving people that sort of free time then that, to me, seems the right thing to do.

"Fiction has to be plausible, reality doesn't." The Jovians occupy an extremely bad design space. They're both supposed to be a playable faction [i]and[/i] they're written as a caricature of modern-day neo-conservatism. Additionally, "fun" in EP comes from running around in a radically transhuman setting, augmenting yourself chemically, biologically, mechanically, and neurologically, while treating death as a minor inconvenience. As a faction, the Jovians are ideologically opposed to radical transhumanism. In other words, the Jovians [i]hate fun[/i]. EP's combat is extremely lethal, which is balanced by the ability to use backups to return from the dead; the Jovian faction is ideologically opposed to doing this. Playing a Jovian in a mixed party means playing someone who believes themselves to be surrounded by heretics and devil-worshipers in a game about fighting the forces of Satan. It certainly doesn't help that the Jovians are not written to be anything [i]but[/i] 1-dimensional antagonists; [i]Rimward[/i] flat-out admits they exist to be "Nazis it's OK to shoot" with, at best, the noble motivation of not wanting to be eaten by the TITANs to give them nuance. They're [i]actually[/i] fascists according to [i]Eclipse Phase[/i], and their government has formalized second-class citizenship, no universal sufferage, no right to assembly, or the press. The Jovian chapter in [i]Rimward[/i] hammers on and on about the oppressive methods of the Republic, including how nobody are allowed to leave without near-impossible-to-get-exit-visas. The TAHI are described as hypocrites, and there's a strong undertone of hypocrisy in the way rich and powerful people have better access to advanced technologies. They let terrorists bomb their own citizens just to get a [i]casus belli[/i], they're so incompetent that their Reagan Cylinders are all polluted, the reader is told that Jovians have shorter, more painful lives because they don't have access to proper medical tech... It seems like the authors don't actually take the Jovian Republic seriously. The narrator for the Jovian chapter in [i]Rimward[/i] claims to be a patriotic Jovian, yet the author still felt the need to have him point out that the Republic is not actually democratic, that their democratic institutions don't work, and that the Governors are all alcoholic pricks. He even manages, as a [i]patriotic Jovian[/i], to call the Jovian Anarchist Cells "freedom fighters". Yes, North Korea exists in the real world. North Korea also has 60 years of complicated social and political developments to bring it where it is today, and doesn't make for a very compelling antagonist except to South Korea. The Jovian Republic, notably, doesn't [i]have[/i] a South Jupiter to overrun. [i]Rimward[/i] even makes sure to point out that the Titanian Commonwealth isn't afraid of Jupiter at all, just to make the JR even more pathetic and pointless. The Jovian Republic is a shallow caricature, and offers nothing new or interesting to the setting.

Smokeskin wrote:

Among the autonomists, there are plenty of problems. The Titans have Janteloven and a stiffling [b]culture of political correctness. The Scum is literally called scum[/b] and most people would be incredibly offended at the way they live. [b]They're certainly not doing anything productive with their lives or achieving anything except for doing lots of drugs and getting rad body mutilation art.[/b] The anarchists have freedom and a nice enough life due to post-scarcity tech, but they're scrabing by in the outskirts of the solar system, often with little access to energy and raw materials. [b]And they're a lazy bunch that work 4 hours a day and they don't have the state apparatus or economic incentives to get any sort of major stuff done unless everyone thinks its a fun project[/b] (and they're going to be arguing over everything instead of just getting it done because they don't have a hierarchal structure). And then there's the whole security thing. How many on this forum wants gun control? How many wants zoning laws that keeps the neighbor from manufacturing toxic chemicals? All of these things are in the books. Why is it that the negative things about the autonomists are ignored?

To be frank, because half those things you've listed as negative (I've bolded them) are things not everyone thinks are bad. I don't think that there's any inherent philosophical value in "achievement", "doing something productive", or that economic incentives to get things done are signs that things are terrible. I wouldn't characterize a 4-hour work week as "lazy" either, and I see no inherent philosophical value in working 6 hours instead of 4, or 8 hours instead of 6. Even though I'm no fan of the Scum, I see no reason to criticize them for indulgent drug-use and body modification, since enjoying that is not exactly some great moral failing. As for the rest, most of it is simply wrong; according to [i]Rimward[/i], the anarchists are not "scrabing by in the outskirts of the solar system"; they're supposedly doing quite well (this is [i]stupid[/i], but nonetheless part of the setting), and as-written they don't seem to have any actual problems getting stuff done. That said, I could go on [i]at length[/i] about the problems of the Autonomist Alliance and the anarchists from a worldbuilding perspective, as well as a political one, [i]and have[/i]. But where the anarchists are just kind of dull all around, the Jovians have some vaguely interesting concepts buried under a truckload of shoddy writing. For one, there's some 35 million-ish Jovians right there in orbit around Jupiter, doing stuff and being stuck between the PC and the TC. The anarchists, meanwhile, are off in the middle of nowhere doing nothing in particular and interacting with nobody, so there's less incentive (for me personally at least) to actually bother trying to fix them.

Many RPGs intially start with ideas that become problematic later or simply become outdated. I suspect this is what happened with the Junta. Initially it was though as some one dimensional bigots in space to serve as targets for it's probable audience. However, when the more planescape-y and political game started to become one of the most interesting things about the setting (the most, for many in this forum) the Jovians became problematic as caricaturesque villains and needed some fleshing out to make them more third dimensional. As they stand post-Rimward, I'm satisfied with all factions in EP. There are clear (IMO) good guys and bad guys, but all of them are nuanced enough that you could have a grey across the board game without much tinkering. As for the Autonomist being boring... I don't get it. In most games the Autonomists would be a non-faction at best or some failed rebels in the outskirts at worse, considering the way anarchism is usually portrait in media. The fact that in EP they are a credible ideologically challenger in the political play field, and that they are framed as the good guys (or at least, the ones with the best new ideas) is already incredibly fresh in my eyes, since usually in sci-fi games you usually have the Federation and Empire expys and nothing else.

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:

The Tyranny of the Rocket Equation is still in effect, even with ultra-energy-dense fuels such as antimatter and metallic hydrogen. They just give you more wiggle room, but at the end of the day, everything extra you want to bring on your ship requires an exponential increase in the fuel you're bringing.

This is not correct. According to the rocket equation, mass scales linearly to fuel. It is velocity that scales exponentially.

Freedom Geek wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's 4 hours a week. Though that's a minimum number - people who like their jobs (or want to rack up some extra rep) can work more. I'm liable to see that as a good thing though. Hard work is not valuable for its own sake - it's only valuable in the good it brings. If society can get by while giving everyone an decent quality of life, decent medical care, etc while giving people that sort of free time then that, to me, seems the right thing to do.

You're right, my bad. I don't agree with your position on work. I think we should strive for more than that. I'm also voluntaryist so I'd not want to force others to do as I think they should, but if I were a statist I don't think I'd go along with it. I'd want the hab to prosper from having people work normal hours for their community benefits.

LatwPIAT wrote:

They're [i]actually[/i] fascists according to [i]Eclipse Phase[/i], and their government has formalized second-class citizenship, no universal sufferage, no right to assembly, or the press. The Jovian chapter in [i]Rimward[/i] hammers on and on about the oppressive methods of the Republic, including how nobody are allowed to leave without near-impossible-to-get-exit-visas. The TAHI are described as hypocrites, and there's a strong undertone of hypocrisy in the way rich and powerful people have better access to advanced technologies. They let terrorists bomb their own citizens just to get a [i]casus belli[/i], they're so incompetent that their Reagan Cylinders are all polluted, the reader is told that Jovians have shorter, more painful lives because they don't have access to proper medical tech...

What part of that is unrealistic?

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It seems like the authors don't actually take the Jovian Republic seriously. The narrator for the Jovian chapter in [i]Rimward[/i] claims to be a patriotic Jovian, yet the author still felt the need to have him point out that the Republic is not actually democratic, that their democratic institutions don't work, and that the Governors are all alcoholic pricks.

That's very common, to be patriotic and still think your government sucks.

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Smokeskin wrote:

Among the autonomists, there are plenty of problems. The Titans have Janteloven and a stiffling [b]culture of political correctness. The Scum is literally called scum[/b] and most people would be incredibly offended at the way they live. [b]They're certainly not doing anything productive with their lives or achieving anything except for doing lots of drugs and getting rad body mutilation art.[/b] The anarchists have freedom and a nice enough life due to post-scarcity tech, but they're scrabing by in the outskirts of the solar system, often with little access to energy and raw materials. [b]And they're a lazy bunch that work 4 hours a day and they don't have the state apparatus or economic incentives to get any sort of major stuff done unless everyone thinks its a fun project[/b] (and they're going to be arguing over everything instead of just getting it done because they don't have a hierarchal structure). And then there's the whole security thing. How many on this forum wants gun control? How many wants zoning laws that keeps the neighbor from manufacturing toxic chemicals? All of these things are in the books. Why is it that the negative things about the autonomists are ignored?

To be frank, because half those things you've listed as negative (I've bolded them) are things not everyone thinks are bad. I don't think that there's any inherent philosophical value in "achievement", "doing something productive", or that economic incentives to get things done are signs that things are terrible. I wouldn't characterize a 4-hour work week as "lazy" either, and I see no inherent philosophical value in working 6 hours instead of 4, or 8 hours instead of 6. Even though I'm no fan of the Scum, I see no reason to criticize them for indulgent drug-use and body modification, since enjoying that is not exactly some great moral failing.

I didn't say everyone thinks these things are bad. I said some do. Sure, you think drugs are fine. But to many drugs are evil, drug dealers are the ultimate criminal, they believe even recreational users should get long prison sentences. The same with a work ethic. Some of the most prominent conservative bioethicists like Fukuyama argue that nootropics should be banned (and we're even talking Ritalin for children who suffer from ADHD) because it reduces the need to work for your achievements, and that devalues their human dignity. And the whole talk of moochers. Just because your ideals align with the autonomists, that doesn't mean everyone does.

Smokeskin wrote:

I didn't say everyone thinks these things are bad. I said some do. Sure, you think drugs are fine. But to many drugs are evil, drug dealers are the ultimate criminal, they believe even recreational users should get long prison sentences. The same with a work ethic. Some of the most prominent conservative bioethicists like Fukuyama argue that nootropics should be banned (and we're even talking Ritalin for children who suffer from ADHD) because it reduces the need to work for your achievements, and that devalues their human dignity. And the whole talk of moochers. Just because your ideals align with the autonomists, that doesn't mean everyone does.

Let me rephrase that; I have these beliefs, and I know that such beliefs are common. The reason there's so little comparative criticism of the Autonomist Alliance is probably because very few people who are likely to be interested in [i]Eclipse Phase[/i] are likely to also hold traditionally conservative beliefs about work ethics, welfare, and recreational drug use. In short, the kind of person interested in EP is the kind of person likely to agree on some level with the political ideals of the Autonomist Alliance.

branford wrote:

Moreover, the authors have essentially conceded that the Jovians are caricatures. They've indicated that they were intended to be veritable "Space Nazi" villains that could be killed or defeated without guilt or shame. The authors attempt to slightly balance this in Rimward (p.195), but the damage has already been done.

I think Rimward (p.195) is actually a really good section. I'm not sure why you so easily dismiss it. Sure, it says that the Jovians make good Space Nazis if you've looking for that kind of thing, but literally the next sentence says "On the other hand, you can also present them in a more nuanced fashion." Then it goes on for several paragraphs on how to portray them as more sympathetic and highlight their positive qualities. It's up to the individual campaign. Why does pointing out that they make a good bad guy for certain scenarios invalidate that they can be more nuanced and sympathetic in others depending on group preference? Sure you could portray them as evil Space Nazis, but I think it's much more interesting to explore their dual nature of being most allied with Firewall's goals, but having differences in tactics. This is explicitly supported by the authors and the setting. I think it's actually pretty cool that they can either be the bad guys, or the cavalry that rides in last minute to save your ass. You can be sure in my campaigns, they'll end up being both. If you want to portray the Jovians with positive traits, then there is plenty in the setting to support this. You really have to go out of your way to say they have no positive traits. I mean earlier some people dismissed having the best defenses against TITAN and Exsurgent threats was a positive trait because the TITANs could just destroy us all if they wanted anyway so might as well not even try. Seriously? I guess Firewall should just pack up and go home then. Almost the entire point of the game is to defend against TITAN and Exsurgent threats. How is an entire faction dedicated to that cause not at least partly good? I'm not sure why everyone thinks the anarchists are so trouble free. I think the very first published adventure was about WMDs being sold in anarchist habs. How is that not a huge drawback? You couldn't pull that in a Jovian hab. Firewall is practically not even needed in the Jovian system, where the anarchists probably only still exist because Firewall keeps saving them and covering up all the near disasters.

bblonski wrote:

branford wrote:

Moreover, the authors have essentially conceded that the Jovians are caricatures. They've indicated that they were intended to be veritable "Space Nazi" villains that could be killed or defeated without guilt or shame. The authors attempt to slightly balance this in Rimward (p.195), but the damage has already been done.

I think Rimward (p.195) is actually a really good section. I'm not sure why you so easily dismiss it. Sure, it says that the Jovians make good Space Nazis if you've looking for that kind of thing, but literally the next sentence says "On the other hand, you can also present them in a more nuanced fashion." Then it goes on for several paragraphs on how to portray them as more sympathetic and highlight their positive qualities. It's up to the individual campaign. Why does pointing out that they make a good bad guy for certain scenarios invalidate that they can be more nuanced and sympathetic in others depending on group preference? Sure you could portray them as evil Space Nazis, but I think it's much more interesting to explore their dual nature of being most allied with Firewall's goals, but having differences in tactics. This is explicitly supported by the authors and the setting. I think it's actually pretty cool that they can either be the bad guys, or the cavalry that rides in last minute to save your ass. You can be sure in my campaigns, they'll end up being both. If you want to portray the Jovians with positive traits, then there is plenty in the setting to support this. You really have to go out of your way to say they have no positive traits. I mean earlier some people dismissed having the best defenses against TITAN and Exsurgent threats was a positive trait because the TITANs could just destroy us all if they wanted anyway so might as well not even try. Seriously? I guess Firewall should just pack up and go home then. Almost the entire point of the game is to defend against TITAN and Exsurgent threats. How is an entire faction dedicated to that cause not at least partly good? I'm not sure why everyone thinks the anarchists are so trouble free. I think the very first published adventure was about WMDs being sold in anarchist habs. How is that not a huge drawback? You couldn't pull that in a Jovian hab. Firewall is practically not even needed in the Jovian system, where the anarchists probably only still exist because Firewall keeps saving them and covering up all the near disasters.

It's not that the Jovians could be Space Nazis, it's that they were intentionally and gratuitously designed and written to actually be Space Nazis that could be killed or defeated without compunction or remorse. The canon text in both the core and Rimward offer Jovians as one-dimensional, mustache twirling, incompetent Luddite villians for the express purpose of being the "bad guys" and foil to the "good guy" anarchists. The repeated threads about the Jovians simply demonstrate that below the surface of express Jovian canon (and the obvious biases of the authors) lie a polity that may (and should) have ideas, motivations and competencies that are realistic, very sympathetic, nuanced and entirely appropriate for a post-apocalyptic horror setting. This is all the more true in light of the fact that PCs are intended as Firewall agents seeking to protect humanity against many of the same threats as the experienced and prepared Jovians. The three short paragraphs on p. 195-6, at best, represent an acknowledgement by the authors' of justified criticism that they entirely failed to present a deeper, more comprehensive or relatable faction in the EP universe. Nevertheless, no additional or revised materials are presented in Rimward or anywhere else to actually correct this deficiency in the official setting. As an aside, I also found the authors' decision to keep Europa firmly out of the control of the Jovians most interesting (unlike the admittedly more nuanced relationship with the city-states of Callisto). Europa, with its vast oceans, has always captured the imagination of the public due to the possible presence of alien life, and has been a premier setting in science fiction rpg's set in our solar system. Given Europa's vast potential resources, profitability and strategic interest, the fact that it is not firmly and unquestionably under the heel of the vastly superior military force of the Jovian Republic to be inexcusable and foolish, particularly while its own citizens needlessly suffer in their Reagan Cylinders. The fact that the text explicitly notes that the Europans have no fear of the Jovians is laughably absurd in light of the setting and purported motivations of the Jovians, inconsistently (see, Hydon, Rimward, p. 47) rendering them nothing more than a paper tiger. However, I can only imagine the hew and cry from disgruntled (left-wing?) fans if Europa was occupied by Space Nazis, and worse, if they had to routinely role-play dealings with such Neanderthals in order to access and explore such a rich setting. (I also think that a fishy Vichy regime on Europa would offer great setting possibilities :) )

Smokeskin wrote:

So along comes post-scarcity tech like AI, advanced robotics, and nanomanufacture, and that allows a society of people who are relatively unproductive to still have a high standard of living. Some of these people make techno-progressive democratic states like Europa, others the technosocialism on Titan, some party hard on Scum barges touring the solar system, some band together in anarchist habs. Where is the problem? It seems natural that a society of people that you agree with would of course seem perfect to you. How could it be otherwise?

I fail to see your point here. Could you please state what the point you're trying to make is? (Edit: also, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs holds about as much water these days as a sieve; it's about as scientific as the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis and phrenology. Part of the reason it's been discredited is because the top two levels have been found to be somewhere between non-universal and [i]pulled out of thin air[/i].)

I think there is some confusion about the 4 hour work week on Anarchist habs. The four hours refers to unfun jobs that no one on the hab wants to perform, so everyone pitches in a little to make the work bearable. So, members of the local programing collective may spend four hours a week handling some element of waste disposal that just has to be done by hand. The rest of the week they are programming. Yes, they may spend a little more time then the average junta citizen playing MARGs and there's no boss getting on their case if they decide to take a nap in the middle of the day, but there is still a lot of productive work being done. That collective doesn't face a loss of income if they don't produce, they face a loss of the respect of their peers and the loss of REP. That can be a surprisingly effective motivator for a lot of people. At least on collectivist and mutualist habs. Who knows what the scum are up to... Oh, and dragging this back on topic: The Junta is actually a fairly good way to introduce players who are not schooled in Transhuman sci-fi. Look at their society: it's Cyberpunk. If you have players who are casually interested in Sci-Fi chances are they can recognize a hab that looks like Blade Runner better then something out of a Banks novel. That's more of a meta-positive then the OP probably wanted, but hey...