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Eclipse Phase "Challenge Rating"

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eaton eaton's picture
Eclipse Phase "Challenge Rating"
So, after running an EP campaign for about a year I've been playing in a D&D5E campaign for about four months. Very different, and helps shed light on some of the explicit design choices that went into EP. One of the things I love about EP is that there aren't really "cannon fodder" enemies that you know will only be a threat in large numbers. Much like real life™, anyone can be a threat under the right circumstances. The downside to that is that it can be tricky to throw together diverse combat encounters without risking the "cakewalk or TPK" extremes. In D&D there's a straightforward "Challenge Rating" mechanic that gives GMs a ballpark estimate of how dangerous an NPC or threat is. Obviously the leveling system makes that easier, but I've been contemplating how something like that might work in EP. Is there a simple(ish?) metric that could be used to weigh the threat level or difficulty of a combat opponent, or group of combat opponents? Is such a thing possible? Obviously it wouldn't be perfect, but I can see something like that really helping new GMs who are trying to feel things out.
eaton eaton's picture
Some thoughts
Stuff that I (tend) to take into account includes:
  • Wound threshold
  • Armor
  • Fray
  • Speed
  • Primary combat skill
  • Average (and peak) damage per successful attack
  • "Extra Skills" (Immobilizing Psi skills, etc)
Wound threshold, armor, and fray boil down to "how hard to take down" while speed, primary combat skill, and avg/peak damage output boil down to "how hard they hit the PCs." The PCs can be rated on the same scale, too. It's far from perfect because it doesn't account for tactics or other force-multiplier abilities, but it's helped me avoid sending them up against grossly *underpowered* enemies more than a few times.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Well, this tends to be a
Well, this tends to be a problem with games with point buy systems vs a predefined leveling system. With point buy, you can make the character of your dreams or very broken characters. It takes some experience with a game system to point buy effective characters. On the other hand, having predefined character classes and levels puts the onus on making effective character builds on the developers instead of the players. And if the system doesn't let you to do much customizing, then it is hard for player to break things. I don't have much experience with DND 5, but I do know much about DND 3. I can tell you that it is hard to make broken characters unless that was your goal. The game even tells you what your character needs to do well. It might tell you that your wizard needs a high int score to cast spells, or a high con score because you start so low on HP to begin with. Pathfinder doesn't cover that stuff in as much detail, unfortunately. Something that another RPG did, BESM 3rd edition, was to create many templates that players could build on. If you wanted to play a Ninja, you could take the Ninja template and build on that. If you wanted to play an Elf, use an Elf template. Wanted to play a Ninja Elf, mix the two templates. As for a metric to judge how powerful characters are, hard to say. I think this game is less about powerful characters than having the players play their characters smart. Don't pick a fight with Direct Action, don't touch the exsurgent, keep a low profile, etc. That said, you could try to create scenarios that could be used to test different aspects of PCs and NPCs. For instance, a gun fight or try to hack into a secure system. Let me get back to you on this and I need to think about this one.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
I've given it some thought.
I've given it some thought. My first knee jerk reaction was to create scenarios for new characters to be run through, but that would require dice rolling, which adds chance to the system. Chance means that a bad character build might excel and a good one might do poorly depending on the how the dice rolls. Plus it can add a lot of work to just test one or a few characters. It can be worth it, but I would argue that you should evaluate characters using some other easier means before you go through the work of putting a character through a scenario. After some thinking, I realized it might be better to grade a character on stats, skills, and equipment. Pick a number of qualities, grade them, and then average them. This average should take in account what a character is good at, but also what their weak points are. If you are testing a character build for combat, you might assign an armor rating of 24 a grade of 60 (I'm just generating numbers right now). A ranged weapons skill of 80 might be ranked 80. A durability of 20 might get a 30. If those 3 were all you were counting, then the character grade would be 57. The fine tuning of this grading system could be figured out over time so you know which stats should be given more weight, which should be given less, and which actually matters. Does a backup weapon matter in a fight? Does melee skills matter in a gun fight? Is a durability of 20 really worth a grade of 30? Some things to consider is that characters can't always take their gear with them, so you might need to be able to do these calculations quickly as a character changes. Likewise, it is possible to face an opponent that has armor that outclasses any weapon you got, so it is important to note when that might be a problem. Or note when a situation might happen that the characters are not prepared for.
SquireNed SquireNed's picture
I calculate what I call "ERS"
I calculate what I call "ERS": Estimated Round Survival. It's a rough guess of how many combat rounds a character will survive. I do this for both PCs and NPCs, using armor, durability, and so forth for defenses and by looking at the biggest gun they might find themselves on the business end of. Typically I try to have combat last three frenetic rounds, and give players an average 4 ERS.
eaton eaton's picture
I want to emphasize that I'm
I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to "score" characters, just get a very, very rough estimate of how they'd fare in a "straight fight" without considering tactics etc. For me at least, it makes it easier to quickly improvise a firefight when they try something out of the ordinary. I did some back of the envelope math and came up with this... INT ( ((WT * (Fray / 100) + Kinetic Armor * 2) + ((Average Damage * (Weapon Skill / 100) + AP) * SPD) / 5 ) It takes "Defense Rating" (Wound Threshold multiplied by Fray/100, plus armor times two), adds it to "Offense rating," (Average damage multiplied by chance-to-hit, plus weapon AP, times speed), and divides it by five. "Average Damage" is naively calculated on the assumption that d10s will roll a 5, and assumes that the character will use all of a weapon's capabilities for max damage — medium pistol on full auto rather than single shot, for example. It looks a little goofy, but I plugged it into a google spreadsheet and it's pretty easy to calculate from a simple NPC block or charsheet. I plugged in NPCs from NPC File Prime, and the spread is interesting: Research Scientist: 1 Vacworker: 2 Gang Member: 4 Criminal Enforcer: 5 Security Trooper: 9 Hoplite Infantry: 13 Bodyguard: 14 Assassin: 22 The PCs in our current campaign are 6 and 7, respectively, though they've recently had to resleeve into fairly underpowered bouncer morphs to lay low. As anticipated, speed and armor both have a big impact on the final score: If you take away the reflex boosters and neurachem juice, the Assassin drops down to just 12. Replace a security trooper's heavy armor with a standard vacsuit, and he's just a 6 — about the same as a criminal enforcer. For a first pass, it feels like a decent back-of-the-envelope calculation I'll use in the future for "combat threat". I'm curious to see how much it differs from what others have come up with…
SquireNed SquireNed's picture
I really like that. It does
I really like that. It does all the stuff I just sort of kludged together in my previous mental math, but with a little more solid mathematical basis.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Sorry if I gave the
Sorry if I gave the impression that I expecting a complicated system. I was looking for something that could give a good idea of what a character can do, but I wasn't in favor of either a simple or complicated system. If your equation works, it is good for me. Quick question. When you use INT, do you mean you are using programing INT? Does that mean you round the value up or down? You didn't add an operation character between the INT and the '(' , so it looks like a program function.
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
ya pretty sure he means
ya pretty sure he means programming int, Integer
eaton eaton's picture
INTs
Whoops, sorry about that — it's the INT(eger) function from the spreadsheet. Copied and pasted it straight from the function without changing that; it's equivalent to rounding down. RE the complicated/not complicated/etc, I didn't mean to imply that you were arguing for a particular kind of system—indeed, I was struggling with the question of how much character diversity would be useful to capture in the simple-rating. (How much is an offensive Psi power worth? What about someone who switches between melee and ranged? What about eelskin? etc etc). At least to test it, I figured simpler was better at first. Based on the threat ratings of past encounters, I think a smart group of PCs can probably take on 1-2x their collective threat rating. Well optimized PCs can probably push up into 3-4x if they dish out high levels of damage and manage to strike first. Over the next couple of sessions I'm going to try using this to scale the combat and see if it feels right.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
I think the thing missing
I think the thing missing from this rating is stealth. The same person will be a lot more dangerous if they have good active camouflage than if they don't. That's a little harder to account for. Distance is similar, as people with long range weapons can be disproportionally dangerous against people with similarly damaging weapons which can't really reach out that far. I think the rating helps a lot, but these are the big factors I can identify which it doesn't cover.
DivineWrath DivineWrath's picture
Well if it works, it is
Well if it works, it is something that can be improved and built upon.
LatwPIAT LatwPIAT's picture
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:I
Trappedinwikipedia wrote:
I think the thing missing from this rating is stealth. The same person will be a lot more dangerous if they have good active camouflage than if they don't. That's a little harder to account for. Distance is similar, as people with long range weapons can be disproportionally dangerous against people with similarly damaging weapons which can't really reach out that far. I think the rating helps a lot, but these are the big factors I can identify which it doesn't cover.
I believe some of the difficulty in modelling the effects of stealth is that EP doesn't have a rigorous system for how to handle stealth, or at best does not readily explain it with the same level of detail and emphasis that it does with regular combat. As for range, it might be useful to simply calculate the threat-rating of enemies at all range brackets, so that one can compare threat-ratings for two sets of combatants at the appropriate range.
@-rep +2 C-rep +1
eaton eaton's picture
For the purposes of this
For the purposes of this (ultra-simplified scale) I'd probably represent heavy stealth capabilities as a smallish boost to chance-to-dodge, aka fray. It has more of an impact on the pre-combat approach tactics, like the ability to get in a first hit, than long-term survivability, so I don't think that underpowers it for this purpose. Range is an interesting issue — I hadn't considered it too much, because on the habitat where most of our campaign takes place it's exceedingly rare to have LOS to anything beyond the range of an SMG. Hmmmmmmm.
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
Stealth is more than a small
Stealth is more than a small bonus to fray. Invisibility cloaks and active camouflage are the best way to force your enemy to take -30 unseen target penalties. Smoke can work as well, but cuts both ways. Even if you're not completely covered, the -20 obscured target penalty is great. Countermeasures exist (Radar and x-ray vision), with some jankier options available (electric sense, enhanced hearing). Being near invisible is a huge bonus in combat. It's a very cheap way to significantly increase your survivability in combat. I rule that taking a wound is enough to degrade the cloak, but RAW, you'll always get it. Working it out in that equation should be pretty easy, just reduce effective shooting skills by the appropriate amount. I didn't think about range a whole lot until my game had a fight in the Martian outback. A supporting seeker-armed drone can provide fire support from 3-10 (depending on size) kilometers out, letting it hit really hard, while being essentially unanswerable. It definitely only matters in certain situations.
eaton eaton's picture
Good God.
Good God. When taking that into account the assassin is a *monster*. I think you've got an excellent point; I've been far too used to D&D5E's stealth handling, which is great until the moment you break cover or attack. After double-checking the rules, I think you're right — it should probably count as a "chance to dodge" boost of (say) 20?
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
I think it's stronger than
I think it's stronger than that. Reducing the enemy's chance to hit does a lot for you. It makes them more likely to miss (duh), makes your Fray roll more valuable, because it's easier for you to roll higher than them if they have to roll lower, and makes it harder for them to get excellent or exceptional success, reducing effective damage. There's kind of a cascade of help it gives you. I think the bonus it gives should be a little stronger, more like -30 or maybe even -40 if they don't have good ways to damage the stealth coating.
eaton eaton's picture
So I plugged a bunch of
So I plugged a bunch of possible variables into the equation and it looks like the things with the biggest current impact are: 1. Speed 2. Damage output modified by chance-to-hit 3. Armor 4. Durability modified by chance-to-dodge Speed and damage output are closely linked and can REALLY skew things. The 'Assassin' is still the highest ranked NPC in a long list because it has decent damage output and an effective speed of *3* with all of its upgrades. Without speed being taken into account, the titan warbot (whose speed of 2 keeps it kneck-and-kneck with the assassin) rises up to the top of the list. This (seems?) reasonable to me given how much discussion there's been over the past few years about the massive impact that speed boosts can have on combat effectiveness. Armor has the next biggest impact because it (almost) never degrades. The difference between smart clothing and 20 kinetic armor makes a huge, huge different on survivability because even if you do get hit, it takes a TON of damage to actually deal a wound. Finally, there's actual morph durability (with fray and other chance-to-hit modifiers like stealth). With low-level NPCs and characters this has a bigger impact, because they tend to be slow with low damage output and meh armor. But as it turns out, morph durability is just not THAT variable between different kinds of characters — the swing between a Spare morph and a Titan Warbot is 20DUR vs 80DUR. The vast majority of morphs range from 35-55DUR. Because chance-to-dodge (including stealth) only acts as a modifier for this value, there's only so much impact it can have. I'm trying to figure out whether this makes sense. Thoughts?
ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture
what about the energy armor
what about the energy armor value? Sure most things are going to be using kinetic weapons because they are far more efficient but we best look from the other angle as well or create an aggregate value that takes both energy and kinetic into account
eaton eaton's picture
Yeah, I just fudged that
Yeah, I just fudged that entirely — mostly because armor values high enough to matter tend to be equal, or very close. Like, there aren't many "5/20" armor values in the game, mostly 5/7, 12/13, and so on. I just settled on kinetic as my go-to because that's what the majority of the weapons in our campaign end up being. I can see looking at it from both angles — but none of the NPCs I plugged in had divergences wide enough to change the resulting threat rating, either.
eaton eaton's picture
Some tidbits from X-Threats
[table][tr][td] [/td][td]Warbot[/td][td]Whipper[/td][td]Think Tank[/td][td]Wastewalker[/td][td]Wrapper[/td][td]Stalker[/td][td]Dreadnought[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Defense[/td][td]48[/td][td]3.5[/td][td]76[/td][td]35[/td][td]19.6[/td][td]49.75[/td][td]84.5[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Offense[/td][td]38.6[/td][td]7.05[/td][td]41[/td][td]29[/td][td]11.5[/td][td]36[/td][td]41[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Threat[/td][td]125.2[/td][td]10.55[/td][td]158[/td][td]93[/td][td]31.1[/td][td]121.75[/td][td]166.5[/td][/tr] [tr][td]Rating[/td][td]25[/td][td]2[/td][td]31[/td][td]18[/td][td]6[/td][td]24[/td][td]33[/td][/tr][/table]
LuisCarlos17f LuisCarlos17f's picture
I have got my own ideas about
I have got my own ideas about mixing d20 Future (and the setting Dark*Matter!), the coming soon "Starfinder" by Paizo and Eclipse Phase, but XPs rewards need a special system because the PC are more or less powerful with the "toys". For example a psico-killer or a zombie can be a true challenge for a "civilian" PC without arms, but you can run over a dozen of zombies with a truck. With a rocket launcher you can kill a dinosaur monster with only a shot. My suggestion is "extra help" should be like a monter template, adding CR and XPs reward. A simple goblin with only a knife isn't is like a goblin sniper from the top of a tree. Can you understand me? If you use d20 system, then forget the classic classes for transhumans. Better a "class" for EGO, and a second "class" for each "morph".
The Master Confucius said: “The noble man is in harmony but does not follow the crowd. The inferior man follows the crowd, but is not in harmony.” (Anaclet 13:23).