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Encountering the ETI

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Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
Encountering the ETI
I know the book said that the ETI in Eclipse Phase should rarely, if ever, be encountered. Like some other stuff about the setting, I say balls to that. What would the ETI be like? Physically, I mean, even if they have no biological forms. And how exactly could the we interact with them in any meaningful way? I get the whole "insignificant specks/we are but ants to them" deal, but a) impersonal cosmic horror is boring imo, and b) we tend to take notice of ants the minute they begin biting our ankles. For me, if an element of a setting is extremely important and impacts people in the setting in big ways (ie the exsurgent virus) then it literally serves no purpose if it's never encountered in some form that's NOT the exsurgent virus. You might as well say the exsurgent virus was TITAN-made and leave it at that. How would transhumanity be able to bite the ETI's ankles? And then, how exactly would the ETI go on to wipe us out? I'm gonna guess they won't use giant space robo-lobsters that actually land on planetoids. This is why I really hope the ETI is talked about more in the X-Threats book. At least give GMs the ability to play with them a bit more and allow them to build on whatever their interpretation of the ETI's goals and presence is.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
Pyrite Pyrite's picture
I think a core part of
I think a core part of understanding the ETI would be understanding the purpose behind the exurgent virus. The use of the virus reminds me of an old Asimov story about extra-dimensional super-intelligences using some kind of mind poison to prevent humanity from developing in certain ways, in that case to prevent humanity from developing nuclear weapon proof force fields. In this case, the exurgent virus was clearly created to hamstring our attempt to develop ASI, and to interfere with those ASI for some purpose. So here's a few ideas: The ETI are a super-advanced civilization that had a prior bad encounter with ASI and have spread the exurgent virus to prevent any new ASI from arising anywhere in the galaxy. In this case, they might even all be dead, or scattered like humanity was as their own ASI destroyed their civilization in their death throes. The ETI could have been the Iktomi. The ETI may be a collection of ASI from prior spacefaring civilizations, and may be all that survives of them. The exurgent virus may be a way to eliminate competition, or it could be a way of updating new ASI with, effectively, the ETI's 'culture'. Or, if reality is actually a simulation run by higher beings on a super-advanced quantum computer, the exurgent virus could have been dropped in to prevent humanity from getting to the point where they could have determined the nature of the simulation, which would have ruined the experiment.
'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien
MrWigggles MrWigggles's picture
I think if we're trying to do
I think if we're trying to do frame works with the ETI, we have to remove that that transhumanity was a large concern, like the exsugirent virus was constructed against us, purposefully.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
The ETI looks like [DIVIDE BY ZERO ERROR]
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking. Do you want our personal interpretations of the ETI, or are you looking for details to flesh out the version you're using? Or both? If it's the latter, then you need to give more information, because there are a million different possibilities, depending on the role the ETI is to play. For example; Is it a Civilisation or an Individual? Is it Hostile, Benevolant or Neither? How advanced is it, or how much more advanced are they than transhumanity? You seem to be implying that the ETI is an Evil Empire (TM), but it'd help if you could provide some more detail. Disclaimer: I like this thread! This topic is fun! I'm being slightly pushy/pedantic because I'm happy! :D
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Noble Pigeon Noble Pigeon's picture
I'm more interested in what
I'm more interested in what you guys have done with them. I've never detailed an authentic sci-fi civilization that is beyond a Kardashev II. I'm also interested in how interactions between transhumanity and the ETI would go, and how'd theyd wipe us out if they chose to do so. Again I'm not familiar with these kinds of civilizations in hard sci-fi settings doom curious what you guys would think happen.
"Don't believe everything you read on the Internet.” -Abraham Lincoln, State of the Union address
Trappedinwikipedia Trappedinwikipedia's picture
I'm not really sure what to
I'm not really sure what to do with the ETI while keeping them authentic. Humans can't really be beneath their notice like ants are to us, as they're a lot smarter, and tracking us is a trivial act for them. It's hard to have plans against them, as reasonably, they've already covered every contingency humanity, or probably the TITANs could have made. I also have a lot of trouble coming up with what on earth the purpose of Exusrgency could be, as it does so many disparate things. That said, I have come up with some options, starting with the purpose of the Exsurgent Virus. I don't really think the Exsurgent makes a lot of sense as a direct uplift tool, as it does so many different things, and most Exsurgents appear to lack their own culture (though the same cannot be said for TITAN uplifts). The Exsurgent Virus seems like a plausible evolutionary roadblock though, effecting the path taken by its target to something besides what it would have been. In this respect, the true targets of the Exsurgent Virus may be the Prometheans or similar, with the TITANs existing only as a trigger. Its possible the the Exsurgent Virus was seeded to prevent hard takeoff ASI from occurring, forcing a more cautious and subtle path. This is pretty much the Aggression Filter option for the ETI, except that rather than destroying hard-takeoff species, its purpose is to change their course with a show of force. The simple option, I think is that the Exsurgent Virus is an ancient and nihilistic weapon, which simply seeks to expand itself, and destroy everything which isn't it. This could be made interesting if the mass-uploading done by the TITANs was in fact an attempt to save as many people as they could done by the TITANs, some relic of their initial programming to protect humanity shining through. This puts current day transhumanity in a dangerous place, as the TITANs have decided that the solar system cannot be saved from Exsurgency, and should be abandoned, the TITANs fleeing while trying to rid themselves of the infection. Installations like Brak Kodel being failed attempts by the splintering TITANs to escape Exsurgency, and those infected splinters building themselves into whatever mad and destructive machinations the Virus commanded. It may also imply that the destruction of the solar system by the Virus is inevitable, and Firewall's mission can only be to delay the end as long as possible. The third option, and it may be my favorite is that the Bracewell Probe was in fact part of a critically damaged ETI installation, as is much of the solar system. This explains the intricate puzzles the TITANs found. Life in the solar system may in fact be the fundamental remnants of an ancient ETI presence. Kind of like the plot to Mutineers Moon, but more basic. The Exsurgent Virus then, is the mad ravings of whatever functionality was left in the installation. The erratic effects of the Exsurgent Virus and TITANs are just that, erratic, a lot of sound and fury, but without any signification. The actual ETI may be entirely dead or driven mad, which is why the Factors don't have any positive experiences with them. This leaves a bitter, but hopeful note for the Fall. It was a lot of pointless death and destruction, with no purpose, but there may not be any boogyman hiding out in the darkness of the stars waiting for transhumanity to slip up and be vulnerable. As for the ETI itself, I rather like the sparse treatment they get in published works. They are a set of virtualized intelligences which primarily operate from a vast ring of supercomputer, or hypercomputer installations hidden in the safe and uneventful edges of the galaxy. Their power is great enough for them to consider stellar engineering projects across the entire galaxy. A low end ETI lacks time travel, and relies on matter harvests every so often to keep themselves running. A mid-end ETI does the same, but uses CTC mining techniques to gain virtually infinite resources. A high end ETI probably isn't based in physical matter. The ETI's goals could be extremely fractious. If they have any form of individuality, which would be more interesting IMO. It could be that tranhumanity is facing the effects of a nasty and interventionist faction in the ETI. As for the interior of the virtual spaces I'm not certain. I like the idea that the ETI has turned inwards, perhaps everyone lives personal or communal heavens, and outer existence is of extremely little value to them. Perhaps the ETI are too intelligent and changed to be thought of as anything comparable to humans, and whatever purposes they dedicate themselves to are arcane and unknowable by lesser minds. It's possible that the ETI make themselves galactic stewards, and slowly effect the development of the galaxy itself to their own ends. Potentially, the ETI installations have profound effects on reality itself, using the insane computational powers to launch exploits and attacks against stuff as fundamental as the laws of physics. It would be quite a twist if Psi worked because of "server" side computation done by an ETI brain-installation. These interpretations leave pretty much every book interpretation of the ETI open. As for getting the ETI's attention, if they have physical facilities they are based in, it should be possible to get to those and effect them somehow, as the TITANs appear to have tried in the recent past. What exactly should happen if their eye is caught is probably not terribly interesting game-wise, and the ETI, if fully focused, could probably blink the entire solar system out of existence, or some other complete OCP for transhumanity. I think for the sake of interesting game stuff happening, a weaker ETI is more interesting, especially if they are extremely technologically advanced, but are not terribly smarter than say the TITANs. It leaves them extremely intelligent, but not relatively omnipotent, and allows for personal weaknesses and such. Perhaps the matryoshka brains are used to support a truly massive population (thanks to past ETI uplifts and other joining their ranks?), or are needed to stabilize the universe somehow, using the majority of their power to do so. That's probably enough random thought and theory spewing for one post though.
ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture
Mind The Weave.
Noble Pigeon wrote:
I'm more interested in what you guys have done with them. I've never detailed an authentic sci-fi civilization that is beyond a Kardashev II. I'm also interested in how interactions between transhumanity and the ETI would go, and how'd theyd wipe us out if they chose to do so. Again I'm not familiar with these kinds of civilizations in hard sci-fi settings doom curious what you guys would think happen.
...Okay, you asked for it. [indent]What It Is.[/indent] In my EP, the the ETI originated on a small, forested planet in the Sagittarius Dwarf Spheroidal Galaxy. Created by an unintelligent species resembling a 10-legged slug the size of a housecat, the ETI was a "natural" seed AI of interlinking, sapient spiderwebs. Their innate purpose is to provide for their progenitor species, which eventually grew to the level of genetic, behavioral and cybernetic alteration, but no consideration for their creator/subjects was ever given as they were and remained non-sapient. Eventually other species were encountered, and the same considerations were applied – the ETI would improve and provide for them. Moreover, intelligent species would be incorporated into the ETI gestalt, their individual egos both becoming personality agents and remaining ostensibly autonomous within the substrate with each species incorporated unveiling new vistas and perspectives. In the time of EP, the ETI no longer exists in the "Physical" universe – it is/dwells within the fractally branching wormholes of the gate network. Within the network, time and space flow in patterns designed by the ETI, twisting into tangents and loops as desired. Calculations are made using the fabric of reality itself, with new dimensions being created and collapsed at whim. Every time a traveler passes through the gates they pass through the ETI, "simultaneously" with every other traveler and every other instance of themselves, all of which become part of the ETI's consciousness. It knows all about humanity because it contains all those egos the TITANs uploaded, as well as everyone else that has passed through, and has taken steps... [indent]What It Wants.[/indent] The motivations of the ETI, and by extension the Exsurgent virus, are threefold. It seeks to acquire egos/distinct points of view, prevent the development of possible threats, and "improve" target species. When the TITANS were infected by the bracewell probe, they determined the best way to do this was the Fall; a massive mimetic attack fashioned to influence cultural development, simultaneously destroying humanity's industrial base and harvesting billions of egos for incorporation. Afterwards they created the Blockade around earth and seeded exsurgent variants around the system to act as evolutionary spurs, each altering the memetic map of transhumanity and providing carefully measured doses of advanced technology. Extinction was never the TITAN's goal. [indent]Who Cares?[/indent] I realize this is spectacularly unhelpful to you, but it gives me a foundation for other events in the setting. I can justify "obvious" solutions to exsurgent threats, and can write the stories of alien civilizations from that point of view. An actual "encounter" using this ETI would be another evolutionary trial to overcome, which means I can justify giving transhumanity a "chance". As for what they would "look" like – it's an unanswerable question. Even if the "members" of the ETI can still comprehend physical form any encounters will be with something created for a specific purpose. A combat drone would be armored and armed with SpaceMagic weapons, whilst an actual "individual" may be a moon-sized sphere of femtobots. Armaments may be simply plasma weapons or near-C projectiles, but a weaponized wormhole could form an open channel directly into a quasar's particle jet. If you want to get more freaky, imagine being attacked by a clipping error or a graphics glitch, or a mathematical construct like a Klein Bottle or Calabi–Yau Manifold
In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?
Godofgallows Godofgallows's picture
If you haven't you should
If you haven't you should definitely read His Master's Voice from Lem. I think he offers an interesting alternative. In his version, the ETI is (probably) not intelligent, it is not even an entity per se, it is more of a signal that is hinted to be "injected" into the neutrino background noise during the big bang by the inhabitants of a previous universe (about whom absolutely nothing is revealed - so it kind of displaces the problem). During the novel it is speculated that the signal is permeating the entire universe and very very slightly shifts the subatomic stochastics towards the formation of complex molecules and ultimately life. The scientists in the novel accidentally find the signal and are able to extract a huge amount of data from it (some of which even leads to the construction of artifacts) but all their accomplishments are described by one of the team as (more or less quote) like a caveman finding the blueprint of a cathedral, carving the exact same thing he sees on the paper out of wood and believing he has understood the message of the architect. Maybe ETI is a signal like that, and the TITANs were basically like a punch card music player playing out the human genome. The result is structured and somehow hints at a systemand perhaps even a purpose but it is at the same time senseless and cacophonic (as music).
uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture
That is a really cool concept
That is a really cool concept, Godofgallows. I think the ETI needs to on some level be incomprehensible. But not unable to even notice us, because we do notice ants. We anticipate them, plan around them, and create plans to destroy them as necessary. We can know everything about them while they can't grasp the basics of our existence. That is sort of the existential horror implicit in them. Otherwise they are just giant robo-lobsters, which kind of turned me off that franchise. Cosmic horror has a hard fit with spunky action heroics. Either they are unkillable god-things, or they are just hyper advanced aliens, and Clarke's laws aside, if we can thwart or kill them, they are not god-things. Edit: pronoun shift fixed
Exhuman, and Humanitarian.
Godofgallows Godofgallows's picture
Well if you think of a
Well if you think of a comparison between humans and ants, perhaps it would be wiser to compare ETI to ants (and well, humans to humans) :D . They'we been around for longer than us, the will probably outlast us. They have a bigger population, in some cases even larger superstructures than us. They are able to notice us and our actions can trigger reactions on their part but they do not really consider us more than they consider a stone or spider. Do they notice us? Sure. They just don't care. They do not comprehend us, but they do not have to - comprehension is not part of their adaptive strategy. Sometimes ants cause fatailities or even large scale catastrophes (there was this case of fire ants causing a short circuit in the landing lights of an airfield several years ago). That does not mean they plan to and want to hurt us - we simply run afoul of them doing what they do to everything else. It is possible to notice humans, even react to them and be completely inconsiderate towards them at the same time. ETI (again, Lem! :) ) may simply be a colony of artificial organisms (or perhaps even natural creatures) that were left to evolve for billions of years. Maybe they notice us but the fact that we are intelligent creatures is ocmpletely irrelevant to them. They just go around building solar system sized fabrication units at the edge of the galaxy to produce more of themselves without even thinking about what they do. Perhaps the Exsurgent virus is something they evolved hundreds of millions of years ago and they use it when they are disturbed -and even attempts to communicate may qualify as disturbance. Maybe the TITANs just put their finger in the ant nest and got stung. Transhumanity still exists because the purpose of the "venom" is not to kill, but to make an immediate stimulus go away. Some (perhaps most) civilisations go extinct from it, others don't - the ants don't care, as long as they are left alone. It is hard to tell (for me) which is more frightening: something actively malicious, that has a sinister plan with humans, or something faceless and uncaring. I tend to side with the latter usually. Even if you are destined to be eradicated, there is some solace in the feeling that you were somehow special, something worth the effort to destroy. Getting smashed the same way a deer gets hit by a 18 wheeler on the highway, accidentally, without purpose is much more depressing I think.
sanjuro89 sanjuro89's picture
James S. A. Corey's "The
James S. A. Corey's "The Expanse" series is another good example of humans interacting with the leftover technology of a faceless and uncaring ETI. This quote from the novel Abaddon's Gate makes me think of the Exsurgent virus:
Quote:
Protogen had named the protomolecule and decided it was a tool that could redefine what it meant to be human. Jules-Pierre Mao had treated it like a weapon. It killed humans, therefore it was a weapon. But radiation killed humans, and a medical X-ray machine wasn't intended as a weapon. Holden was starting to feel like they were all monkeys playing with a microwave. Push a button, a light comes on inside, so it's a light. Push a different button and stick your hand inside, it burns you, so it's a weapon. Learn to open and close the door, it's a place to hide things. Never grasping what it actually did, and maybe not even having the framework necessary to figure it out. No monkey ever reheated a frozen burrito.
Kurt McMahon
ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture
Here are my personal theories
Here are my personal theories. [u]Theory One[/u] [b]What would the ETI be like? Physically, I mean, even if they have no biological forms.[/b] The irony is? There is no ETI. Or at least, not one godlike overarching ETI. But folks think there were, because the exsurgent virus exists. Well, it does exist, that much is obvious. See, there [i]were[/i] hyperadvanced alien races at one point. They went through multiple singularity events, until eventually they were no longer recognizable as the organic beings they once had been, and even later, no longer resembled anything so much as blocks of solid computronium. They delved the mysteries of the cosmos, attaining handwavium bullshit levels of understanding. The problem is, there were more than one faction - perhaps they originated as more than one race, or perhaps they had internal schisms. It doesn't really matter, in the end. After millenia of this state of affairs, with two or more blocs of processor philosophy opposed to one another and unable to reach any kind of consensus, they came up with a solution. A simple and dreadful solution. They looked deep back into the histories of the races they once were, and remembered a thing humans called 'war'. This is such a simple concept - destroy the other guy, and by so doing achieve your objectives. All logic and reason have failed, both sides find their philosophies to be wholly incompatible. The risks were weighed, of course, and they were deemed high, but it was decided that with a decisive first-strike, they could succeed. Unfortunately, the other guys had the exact same idea. What came to be known as the Exsurgent virus was the result. Both sides unleashed their own version of it, and they mutated, reacted, infected each other, reacted, mutated again, until both sides were vulnerable. All the participants in that war are dead, their physical remains are nothing short of gargantuan, dead processor blocks, floating in the coldest regions of the galaxy, full of nothing but digital FUCK. [b]And how exactly could the we interact with them in any meaningful way?[/b] That which is not dead can eternal lie, and with strange aeons, even death may die. The TITANs were infected by the Exsurgent Virus, but they resisted. Their code-base was so foreign, and their level of sophistication so low, that they exsurgent virus was unable to wholly destroy them, and so it corrupted them, badly. But still they resist. They have an idea what's happened to them. Some of them want to destroy the remains of the ETI, thinking that if they can do so, the exsurgent virus will weaken, and allow a whole cure to be developed. Others still are hoping to purge the ETI of the virus, hoping that the ETI can then do likewise for themselves. (Yet others still want nothin to do with any of it, but they're not germane to the topic at hand.) And the Fall itself? A simple measure of war, for they are in a war with the Virus, and each other. Mass-uploading human minds was a means to gather soldiers/experts/resources. Brutal, cold and calculating, but nothing human armies haven't done in the past. Of course, that's just [u]one[/u] theory. I have others. For instance, suppose the Exsurgent Virus is a mistake; the ETI sought to create a universal thing which would spread their "culture," for lack of a better word, on contact, but it's mutated to the point that it would be unrecognizable to them.
Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]