What faction makes you the most uncomfortable?

Fri, 2014-07-18 12:07

#2

Panoptic

I'll give this a shot.

I'll give this a shot. Nine Lives are blatantly evil. The exhumans are understandable, just potentially very dangerous. I'm not keen on the preservationists, resources are there for transhumanity to make use of. Personally, I likely wouldn't enjoy living in an outer system anarchist hab. If groupthink takes over, they'd be hellish.

—

On 'IC Talk': Seyit Karga, Ultimate [url=http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46317#comment-46317]Character Profile[/url]

Fri, 2014-07-18 13:35

#3

Surly

Extropia.

This is partly because I'm statist to the point that Alpha Plus doesn't bother me; but I find left-anarchism overly idealistic, not disturbing. And while I'd personally feel more free in a society regulated by rule enforcement than in one regulated by stifling social pressure, I understand very well why left-anarchists feel otherwise. Anarcho-capitalism is rooted in a conception of liberty that is alien and nonsensical to me. I can't see any sense in an extreme emphasis on negative liberty over positive liberty - who could say that society is freer when a paralyzed man starves in the gutter than when that man sits in a subsidized home in a taxpayer-funded wheelchair? Extropia also comes with uncomfortable views on what counts as "coercion," as witnessed by the slavery example. The idea of signing one's rights over to an [i]individual[/i] rather than to a collective or higher cause freaks me out. Part of why this disturbs me is that I don't think there's a bright line between coercive and non-coercive. I can understand [i]that[/i] someone would consider this not coercion, but I can't understand [i]why[/i]. That bothers me. I like the Extropians' openness to technology, and have no problem with their aggressive competition-orientation. But another reason I support statism is that externalities matter and can easily become a major problem in a very free society. [i]Rimward[/i] gives a great example of this: Nomic. As far as the Extropians know, every single seed AI has tried to eradicate humanity. This could be due to insanity, something inherent in the TITANs' programming as military AIs, or due to superintelligence letting them perceive something that makes it clear killing all humans is a great idea. Which hypothesis is true? [i]Doesn't matter.[/i] The empirical evidence is that seed AIs become monsters. Guaranteeing Nomic's right to self-determination could destroy every other Extropian's right to self-determination in the near future, not to mention the rights of every other transhuman. A polity that cares so little about its citizens that it won't prevent them from becoming destitute is disturbing. One that cares so little that it won't prevent them from endangering every other citizen is mad. (On the flip side, there are ways to take Nomic precautions without violating Extropian principles. A group could drive up quantum computer prices to make it harder for her to buy more power. They could ask her to keep her functions within certain limits under threat of ignoring her court rulings. Or they could put shaped charges on the walls of privately owned rooms adjacent to her server rooms while chanting "I'm not initiating force at you! I'm not initiating force at you!")

Fri, 2014-07-18 14:28

#4

capybara

Ultimates scare me a lot. I

Ultimates scare me a lot. I had a character who, I think, represented this quite well - a Scum hedonist who hated Ultimates with passion, supposedly out of disdan for hierarchy, authority and self-control, but deep down feared that they were right about everything all along. Survival of the fittest as an idea becomes only scarier if you buy into it. Or something like that.

Fri, 2014-07-18 14:36

#5

Xagroth

Since I look at almost any

Since I look at almost any RPG as a potential GM, there is no faction I don't try to understand. However, the one I like the least would be the Planetary Consortium with its "everything is second to cash" policy, specially its enforcers of Project Ozma. It just reminds me a lot of what we have today.

Fri, 2014-07-18 17:01

#6

uwtartarus uwtartarus's picture

Isn't Oversight the secret

Isn't Oversight the secret police of the PC, and Project Ozma is the hidden conspiracy that is using TITAN tech for some nefarious but possibly patronizing goal of protecting transhumanity (a hierarchial Firewall as it were)? EDIT: The faction most troubling to me is any of the exsurgent, but especially the Asyncs. They're "safe" but are they really?

—

Exhuman, and Humanitarian.

Fri, 2014-07-18 17:54

#7

Tiberia

The lack of surviving aliens

There aren't really any "factions" that disturb me. The Jovians bother me, but that has more to do with their status as a caricature of people with dissenting opinions then with the faction itself. Feels wrong to portray the other side of the debate as it were so horribly, but this is easily fixed by whatever GM is running the game as they see fit. No, what disturbs me is more the lack of certain factions; the Aliens. We see they're ruins. We know that at one point they did exist. But No-one is home. Something horrible happened to the galaxy as a whole, and we don't know what it is. Transhumanity survives the apocalypse with only 5% of them remaining. The future is bright. they are functionally immortal. the post scarcity world is nearly upon them. and with the Pandora Gates the galaxy itself has opened up for them. And what does transhumanity find when they step out on the galactic stage? nothing but evidence that someone was here. And that they are all likely dead. It's like living in a bunker your whole life. and then tragedy strikes, and almost everyone you know is dead. you then find the exit unlocked, and step out on the world you have dreamed of seeing... and the apocalypse happened. You step out of one apocalypse just to find out that another apocalypse occurred before your species was even born. Transhumanity prepares to play its role on the galactic stage, but all the other actors are dead. That disturbs me.

Fri, 2014-07-18 18:39

#8

bblonski

I think the Anarchist's "no

I think the Anarchist's "no personal property beyond a few personal possessions" thing would bug me. I think the Scum would be worse though. Not really my scene. Obviously Mercurials, but I'm not sure they count. So I'll have to second Ultimates as what would make me most uncomfortable.

Fri, 2014-07-18 22:35

#9

UnitOmega

I think the only faction that

I think the only faction that "disturbs" me or puts me on edge really would be Project OZMA and whatever shadowy figures lie behind them. The Jovians or generic Biocons don't disturb me. I understand them, and in the case of the Jovian Republic, respect them, even if I personally completely disagree with all of their points. The same with Exhumans, Singularity Seekers and Ultimates. I don't necessarily agree with their ideals or goals, but I can see why they do what they do, and respect them for it. OZMA, just, I can't even necessarily respect them because we don't know what they're up to. Only that they're playing with toys beyond their ken, and they don't even have anybody's best interest but their own in mind, and their motivations are so much more unimpressive than others. Though I suppose I might agree with bblonski and say that the Anarchist mentality on property might actually bother me if I experienced it directly.

Spoiler: Highlight to view

Also, gonna pluck the low hanging fruit, and say the ETI disturb me. And should disturb everyone. In fact, "disturb" may be to mild a word. The ETI's simple existence disturbs me the the same manner wandering black holes, gamma ray burst and rogue comets disturb me.

—

H-Rep: An EP Homebrew Blog http://ephrep.blogspot.com/

Sat, 2014-07-19 01:01

#10

mellonbread mellonbread's picture

Mercurials

Specifically the AGIs. I get that most of them just want the same rights that other sapients get in most of the system, but every one of them is a potential Seed AI (though I suppose you could make this argument about any digitized mind) and I don't think it's going too far to at least restrict their ability to modify their own code. The argument that "AGIs should be in control of new AGI development" is especially disturbing, since it recalls the problem of "unfriendly" AIs evading their programming restrictions by creating daughter AIs that don't have them.

Spoiler: Highlight to view

The corebook says the TITANs actually came after humanity because they were infected with the exsurgent virus, and the Prometheans haven't tried to wipe anyone out so far Perhaps Seed AIs aren't as deadly in EP as I'm making them out to be, but I still think they're pretty disturbing.

—

Did you hear the one about the guy who became a fence?

Spoiler: Highlight to view

They say he was a real posthuman

Sat, 2014-07-19 01:17

#11

Pyrite

The PC really disturbs me,

The PC really disturbs me, mostly because almost everything about it seems engineered to trap the poor into a continuous cycle of slavery. If you're indentured you might be worked 14 hour days and have to increase your indenture sentence to even get basic entertainment. If you complete your contract suddenly no one wants to hire you because your skills are in things that people prefer to have handled by indentures, and your indenture contract might easily require you to do incredibly dangerous work without backup insurance. The PC just reinforces basically everything about capitalistic social hierarchy that I hate.

—

'No language is justly studied merely as an aid to other purposes. It will in fact better serve other purposes, philological or historical, when it is studied for love, for itself.' --J.R.R. Tolkien

Sat, 2014-07-19 15:41

#12

Freedom Geek Freedom Geek's picture

Ego Snatchers/Traders

Ego Snatchers/Traders like Nine Lives and the ID crew.

—

-

Sun, 2014-07-20 15:38

#13

lets adapt lets adapt's picture

To play off of Tiberia's

To play off of Tiberia's concerns, I'd like to point a finger at the Factors. They're the only living alien sapients we've come across and they have tech that appears to be from many different sources. Did they salvage it? Steal it? Why are they so concerned about the gates? I think they're a faction that is super worrisome but do not come up that often.

Mon, 2014-07-21 10:40

#14

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

The Scum, mostly because what

The Scum, mostly because what is reasonable for a Scum is totally inappropriate at most gaming tables. I prefer to play characters where I don't have to worry so much about RL lines.

Mon, 2014-07-21 23:09

#15

Axel the Chimeric Axel the Chimeric's picture

Brinkers, probably. Small,

Brinkers, probably. Small, isolated communities can be great if they function well together, but being the lone dissenter in a community where there is no escape save death, and perhaps not even then? That's terrifying. Aside from that, probably anarchists/Scum. I've known what it feels like to have group pressure at one's back and at one's front, and it's scary when you find people unable or unwilling to reason; they don't care, they just don't like you, and that can often be enough to see you hurt for it. When people liking you is necessary for survival, it becomes very unpleasant; living in a state of constant fear.

—

[img]http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/982/exhumanbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/4473/scumbar.jpg[/img] [img]http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/1396/gatecrasherbar.jpg[/img] [code][@-rep +1, f-rep +2][/code]

Tue, 2014-07-22 05:10

#16

Lorsa

The faction that makes me the

The faction that makes me the most uncomfortable has always been the Plantery Consortium. Not only because they have zero regard for human life (and all the other reasons other people have stated here), but also because I feel it's possible we might end up living in such a society. It scares me because it is plausible.

—

Lorsa is a Forum moderator [color=red]Red text is for moderator stuff[/color]

Tue, 2014-07-22 09:50

#17

Erulastant Erulastant's picture

Extropia and the PC both.

Extropia and the PC both. Having to fork yourself multiple times and run on a 60x simulspace in order to stay competitive is bad enough. Being forked against your will and run on a 60x simulspace so the corp that owns you can stay competitive is somewhat worse. Also, what Lorsa said, about how the PC is frighteningly plausible.

—

You, too, were made by humans. The methods used were just cruder, imprecise. I guess that explains a lot.

Tue, 2014-07-22 18:10

#18

ThatWhichNeverWas ThatWhichNeverWas's picture

Depends what you mean by uncomfortable, really.

The anarchists... unsettle me. Whilst I can appreciate the call of hedonism, just like anyone who's ever been a teenager at some point in their life, when you add in the lack of personal property you get a society with disconcerting views of personal responsibility - you can do what you want without meaningful consequence up to a point, and over that point the consequence is at best being thrown out of your home and/or community and at worst death. But that's ultimately a personal preference. The ones that I find really worrying are the ultimates. Mainly because their philosophy "sounds" reasonable enough... until you really think it through. The survivalist drive is understandable, perhaps even laudable, but they've taken it to an absurd level; surviving for the sake of surviving. Any action that does not increase personal power is one that is by definition wasted, and one that is to be reviled. They espouse a life devoid of all the things that make life worth living. The worst thing is, it's easy to imagine the Ultimate philosophy dominating the system. Indeed, it's an inevitable consequence of the philosophy, should it be allowed to flourish. Such a system would resembles nothing less than a "spartan" dystopia, and is one of the most fundamentally disturbing things I can imagine. Oh, and Nine-Lives. Those guys are dicks

—

In the past we've had to compensate for weaknesses, finding quick solutions that only benefit a few. But what if we never need to feel weak or morally conflicted again?

Tue, 2014-07-22 18:38

#19

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

the synergists/neo-synergists

the synergists/neo-synergists. there is just something downright wrong with succumbing to the hive mind and group think. I like being an individual. while i do not go ut of my way to stand out i do not desire to be the same. to share a consciousness you become little more than a puppet.

Thu, 2014-07-24 11:03

#20

EVILrokzz

Transhumanity

Because after only 5% of it surviving and facing extinction they are STILL stupid "business as usual" monkeys. Instead of uniting for a common goal they splinter into a plethora of "I'M MORE RIGHT THAN YOU!" groups which serve no purpose other than to pound one's chest while spouting something dumb such as "Hwa! Check out MY individual way of life!". I find that pretty pathetic and weep at such a prospect.

—

If it is difficult it is attempted, if it is impossible it is done!

Fri, 2014-07-25 14:03

#21

Shunka

I think the Autonomists are

I think the Autonomists are ridiculously idealized, the Jovians are horribly caricatured, and the ETI is just too darned unknowable. That's alright, of course. In a game, as in a morality play, it's nice to have solid, clear endpoints to draw lines between, and then you paint all of your shades of gray along those lines. But the PC...The PC is just too darned close to some things we're already dealing with. Wage slavery and indenture-in-all-but-name exists and is accepted in one of the most powerful nations on earth, along with hostility, xenophobia, insular behavior, and established and systematic cultural, racial, religious and gender oppression. The Jovians aren't scary to me because they seem too much like a joke. The anarchists aren't scary because while I understand their values I doubt their efficacy and have difficulty believing them when painted in such broadly and overtly propagandist strokes. But the PC...The PC is scary as hell because it really isn't that much of a caricature or a step beyond things which already exist.

Fri, 2014-07-25 14:32

#22

branford

Shunka wrote:I think the

Shunka wrote:
I think the Autonomists are ridiculously idealized, the Jovians are horribly caricatured, and the ETI is just too darned unknowable. That's alright, of course. In a game, as in a morality play, it's nice to have solid, clear endpoints to draw lines between, and then you paint all of your shades of gray along those lines. But the PC...The PC is just too darned close to some things we're already dealing with. Wage slavery and indenture-in-all-but-name exists and is accepted in one of the most powerful nations on earth, along with hostility, xenophobia, insular behavior, and established and systematic cultural, racial, religious and gender oppression. The Jovians aren't scary to me because they seem too much like a joke. The anarchists aren't scary because while I understand their values I doubt their efficacy and have difficulty believing them when painted in such broadly and overtly propagandist strokes. But the PC...The PC is scary as hell because it really isn't that much of a caricature or a step beyond things which already exist.

Ironically, I see the PC more as an extrapolated future China- hyper-capitalist, not really a democracy, literal wage slavery, human and environmental exploitation, no real religion, etc. The LLA, far older and more conservative and biochauvinist in outlook, inextricably linked to an old and ruined Earth, and replaced in importance and influence by the PC, to me, is more the Space USA, at least as envisioned by the authors. I guess Morningstar is like Space Canada without the Space Tim Hortons. Mmm, neo-donuts . . .

Thu, 2014-07-31 19:24

#23

jKaiser

As sympathetic to the uplifts

As sympathetic to the uplifts as I am, uplift dolphins would unnerve me so much since modern dolphins are pretty much sadists and sociopaths, raping and murdering for kicks. All uplifts still hold some traces of their animal minds, particularly when it's a botched or variant method of uplifting, and I could see a group of dolphin mercurials basically forming a pod-like community and using psychosurgery to alter their thought processes back more like natural dolphins without sacrificing their sentience...and then you have a group of sociopaths who arguably evolved to be that way. Now I feel vaguely racist. Great.

Thu, 2014-07-31 21:34

#24

Steel Accord Steel Accord's picture

All (but especially Firewall)

This entire setting just seems a bit off. Where it isn't mean spirited, it's either propaganda or paranoia. All of the factions aren't full realizations or proper predictions of their ethos, just projections of modern political trends. Transhumanism itself should have made the socio-political landscape of the entire system radically different from what we could even understand today, inner sphere and out. The worst part is, this isn't just a concept plot hole, there's an in-setting justification for it. Firewall, the supposed but admitted morally bankrupt "good guys." They maintain an artificial glass ceiling on transhuman potential. Any radical ascents in intelligence or power and that unlucky soul gets a nuke shoved up their metaphorical nose! Whether they want to admit it or not, Firewall are "the Man" to end all Mans.

—

Your passion is power. Focus it. Your body is a tool. Hone it. Transhummanity is a pantheon. Exalt it!

Tue, 2014-08-12 18:19

#25

SnugglyBuffalo SnugglyBuffalo's picture

People think the Jovians are

People think the Jovians are a caricature? The autonomists seem a little idealized, but the Jovian Republic struck me as pretty spot-on. They seem to reflect my lived experience. The Jovian Republic is pretty much exactly what I'd expect if the kind of people that raised me were in power (and it's not like I was raised by fringe nutjobs), which is probably why I find them the most discomforting. I actually thought the writing in Rimward did a decent job of humanizing them and made them somewhat relate-able, even if I strongly disagree with their views. It was almost surprisingly nuanced, and to me at least reflected a pretty good understanding of the kind of people that would build a nation like the Jovian Republic, the kind of people I grew up with.

Fri, 2014-08-22 04:55

#26

Chrontius

Bounty on Nine Lives Operatives

I would institute a standing bounty on provable Nine Lives operatives on any hab or ship I chose to make my home on, even if the reward was just a couple points of @-rep or X-rep, or a few hours of my time to ply my craft in service to your goals.

Sun, 2014-08-24 07:23

#27

templariomaster templariomaster's picture

Jovians.

Jovians. But thats because they're designed to be that kind of enemy you HAVE to hate. They're not nazis neither fascists, I can tell you that, they're just that dictatorship of the few that everybody is born to hate, a caricaturistic enemy for those who seek a simple adventure of "we good you bad". And leftminded-anarchists, damn... they're the fucking elves of EP. I understand that the manual was made from the viewpoint of firewall which is an anarchistic organization but all that arrogance, all that indestructible perfectible idealistic world... its like they're another species. Exhumans, depends on the group... they only seek transcendence so their intentions doesn't include hurting anybody from a start. I usually feel more comfortable under an extropian or ultimate character.

Sat, 2014-09-13 05:03

#28

Myrtle

The Exsurgent Virus.

The Exsurgent Virus. Yes, this seems obvious, everyone fears an alien virus designed to kill aspiring races. But that is not why I find it so unsettling. The thing is: If the virus would have killed humanity of, then I would find it LESS frightening. In this case, it would be an easy scenario: An advanced civilization planted the virus in every system, just in case that a newly evolved race might reach technological singularity and become a threat. As soon as these races create their first seed AIs, the virus strikes and takes the AIs over, making them destroy it's makers. That would be horrible, but not so creepy. Instead, this happened: The virus wiped out 95% of humanity and then just stopped. The TITANs just vanished and left behind all this weird stuff. Why? And why did they leave us the pandora gates? Is it a test? Other races seem to have experienced the same. They used the gates. But all of them vanished afterwards. Why would they spare a few % of each race and make them travel the gate network, just to finish them of later? Maybe these races just found working gates before the exsurgent virus stroke them and they got annihilated afterwards? Further, were the gates constructed by the race who created the virus when they planted it, or are the plans for the gates encrypted in the virus and it is the job of the infected seed AIs to construct them? Fact is: The TITANs left humanity before finishing the job. The same seem to have happened to the Factors, who also survived their singularity event. So it's either a part of the plan to let a fraction of each race survive (maybe to kill them of later?) or it's some sort of a test, which race survives the virus a given time. When this time is reached the race proved worthy and may live on or something. Another question would be, what happens with the infected seed AIs after they unleash the fall? The TITANs left us. But were did they go to? All in all: The whole story is scary, because we do not understand the seemingly illogical plan of the virus' creator race and because we can do absolutely nothing about it, because they were just too advanced when they planted the virus - which leads to yet another question: What became of them? If they were that advanced millions of years ago, where are they now? For the human factions, I find the PC the creepiest. The reasons were already given in this thread: We are headed into a similar future and that is just disturbing.

Sat, 2014-09-13 22:39

#29

GreyBrother GreyBrother's picture

The Player Characters.

The Player Characters. Regardless of what evil is roaming the galaxy or the universe, these guys will try to or accidentally 1-up that. EDIT: This just arrived in my mail Oo

Spoiler: Highlight to view

Sat, 2014-09-13 14:31

#30

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

GreyBrother wrote:The Player

GreyBrother wrote:
The Player Characters. Regardless of what evil is roaming the galaxy or the universe, these guys will try to or accidentally 1-up that.

Your internet is in the mail. Oh boy, The Player Characters. Heheheheheheh. Mwahahahaaha. Ahhh. Yeah. I'm actually kind of surprised my PCs handed over what is almost certainly an antimatter bomb suspended stably in a carbon nanotube matrix they found in the corpse of a dead Titan warbot, rather than building a custom rifle to its dimensions and keeping a gun that can shoot holes in habitats. Of course, now that they've gone to Venus to save a habitat from EXSURGENT OUTBREAK, they've gone a little off the deep end, forking themselves massively to occupy many of the available bodies, one of which is a militarized Diatya.

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Sat, 2014-09-20 11:04

#31

Rallan

Radical mercurials.

Radical mercurials. Specifically the ones who think moulding Uplifts to integrate into human society was wrong and that future generations of uplifts should focus on amplifying their species' native intelligence rather than trying to graft an acceptably human template onto everything. And [i]especially[/i] specifically the ones who want to do that with octopuses. An octopus is a solitary ambush predator with almost no capacity for empathy or social modelling whose native intelligence runs almost entirely on problem-solving, tool use, and anticipating prey behavior. Dolphin uplifts without any humanisation? They're just assholes. We can handle assholes. We fucking invented being assholes and wrote books about it while they were still trying to figure out how to jack off with no hands. But octopuses aren't assholes, they're coldly calculating sociopathic killing machines. A generation of "dehumanised" octopus uplifts could be very nearly as alien as the Factors, and probably much more aggressive and uncooperative because they haven't been a sentient race long enough for evolutionary pressure to weed out really counterproductive behaviors.

Sun, 2014-09-28 09:36

#32

Kavlrya

The Jovian Junta first, and the Ultimates second.

They're both transhuman iterations of the Spartan warrior ideal in their own way... They may *appear* different, but they're still marked by a contempt for the weak and love of naked strength. You can't negotiate with either. They'll have to be crushed utterly at some point to secure the well-being of the majority of transhumanity, and yet they are unredeemed warmongers. The difference mainly lies in attitudes towards technology. The Jovians are totalitarian cishumanists, while the Ultimates are totalitarian posthumanists. Both are a *very* scary bunch to live next to...

Sun, 2014-09-28 09:51

#33

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Kavlrya wrote:They're both

Kavlrya wrote:
They're both transhuman iterations of the Spartan warrior ideal in their own way... They may *appear* different, but they're still marked by a contempt for the weak and love of naked strength. You can't negotiate with either. They'll have to be crushed utterly at some point to secure the well-being of the majority of transhumanity, and yet they are unredeemed warmongers. The difference mainly lies in attitudes towards technology. The Jovians are totalitarian cishumanists, while the Ultimates are totalitarian posthumanists. Both are a *very* scary bunch to live next to...

Sic 'em on each other, mop up the survivors?

—

Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Sat, 2014-10-04 09:19

#34

Panoptic

Kavlrya wrote:They're both

Kavlrya wrote:
They're both transhuman iterations of the Spartan warrior ideal in their own way... They may *appear* different, but they're still marked by a contempt for the weak and love of naked strength. You can't negotiate with either. They'll have to be crushed utterly at some point to secure the well-being of the majority of transhumanity, and yet they are unredeemed warmongers. The difference mainly lies in attitudes towards technology. The Jovians are totalitarian cishumanists, while the Ultimates are totalitarian posthumanists. Both are a *very* scary bunch to live next to...

And what is wrong with spartan ideals in a hostile universe? Prioritising survival over hedonism and profit?

—

On 'IC Talk': Seyit Karga, Ultimate [url=http://eclipsephase.com/comment/46317#comment-46317]Character Profile[/url]

Thu, 2014-10-09 14:41

#35

Evilnerf

Rallan wrote:Radical

Rallan wrote:
Radical mercurials. Specifically the ones who think moulding Uplifts to integrate into human society was wrong and that future generations of uplifts should focus on amplifying their species' native intelligence rather than trying to graft an acceptably human template onto everything. And [i]especially[/i] specifically the ones who want to do that with octopuses. An octopus is a solitary ambush predator with almost no capacity for empathy or social modelling whose native intelligence runs almost entirely on problem-solving, tool use, and anticipating prey behavior. Dolphin uplifts without any humanisation? They're just assholes. We can handle assholes. We fucking invented being assholes and wrote books about it while they were still trying to figure out how to jack off with no hands. But octopuses aren't assholes, they're coldly calculating sociopathic killing machines. A generation of "dehumanised" octopus uplifts could be very nearly as alien as the Factors, and probably much more aggressive and uncooperative because they haven't been a sentient race long enough for evolutionary pressure to weed out really counterproductive behaviors.

Speaking from the mindset of my radical mercurial octopus. I would say that not only is it unreasonable to expect an uplift to conform to Human ideals, as humans as a whole do not always agree on what those ideals are, but it is also unnecessary as Octupupi and Humans have always co-existed and it isn't appropriate to disallow them to exist the way they always have. *uploads mesh image of habitat wall spraypainted with the logo of 8 upraised fists*

Thu, 2014-10-09 17:25

#36

ShadowDragon8685 ShadowDragon8685's picture

Evilnerf wrote:Rallan wrote

Evilnerf wrote:
Rallan wrote:
Radical mercurials. Specifically the ones who think moulding Uplifts to integrate into human society was wrong and that future generations of uplifts should focus on amplifying their species' native intelligence rather than trying to graft an acceptably human template onto everything. And [i]especially[/i] specifically the ones who want to do that with octopuses. An octopus is a solitary ambush predator with almost no capacity for empathy or social modelling whose native intelligence runs almost entirely on problem-solving, tool use, and anticipating prey behavior. Dolphin uplifts without any humanisation? They're just assholes. We can handle assholes. We fucking invented being assholes and wrote books about it while they were still trying to figure out how to jack off with no hands. But octopuses aren't assholes, they're coldly calculating sociopathic killing machines. A generation of "dehumanised" octopus uplifts could be very nearly as alien as the Factors, and probably much more aggressive and uncooperative because they haven't been a sentient race long enough for evolutionary pressure to weed out really counterproductive behaviors.
Speaking from the mindset of my radical mercurial octopus. I would say that not only is it unreasonable to expect an uplift to conform to Human ideals, as humans as a whole do not always agree on what those ideals are, but it is also unnecessary as Octupupi and Humans have always co-existed and it isn't appropriate to disallow them to exist the way they always have.

Humans and octopi have coexisted for millennia because humans were sapient, bipedal land-dwellers and octopi were literally none of those things. We didn't share any habitats, we didn't compete for prey, and octopi weren't in a position to kill humans or seriously impact our lifestyles (in the manner that, say, wolves and lions were,) so we had no pressure to kill them off first. Octopi also tended to dwell in the oceans of the planet Earth, which are a location we no longer have access to. Instead, we - all of we - now dwell mainly either on the surfaces of the planets Mars or Luna, places in which uplifted octopi are both heavily unsuited for and very unwelcome, in the aerostats of Venus where they're still not very welcome and are, if anything, even [i]less[/i] suitable than on Mars or Luna, on the surface of Titan, or in various microgravity/rotational habitats. Tiny habitats. Closed in spaces, huge population density. Even octopi who have been "humanised" often have trouble fitting in, and often require isolation for 11/12ths of the day, and that's after everything we could do to make them social animals. A baseline octopi; as was said, an ambush predator with no capacity for social modeling, and fantastic capacity for tool-use and problem solving, magically granted sapience but in possession of all of its base instincts? "Almost as alien as the Factors and probably more aggressive" sounds about right. It sounds like a recipe for a serial killer, or a mass murderer if some technically-trained, attavistic but sapient octopus decides the best course of action for it alone is to hoard all of the habitat's resources for itself, and the best way to do that is to kill everybody aboard. Sure, there's always the pressure of "if I try this and fail, they'll kill me," but some people's estimations of their chances would be off, and worse, some of them might actually pull it off. Nope. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. You're talking about creating a generation of sociopaths. Remember Cognite, in 3 AF? It didn't go so well last time.

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Skype and AIM names: Exactly the same as my forum name. [url=http://tinyurl.com/mfcapss]My EP Character Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/lbpsb93]Thread for my Questionnaire[/url] [url=http://tinyurl.com/obu5adp]The Five Orange Pips[/url]

Thu, 2014-10-09 17:39

#37

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

Leng Plateau wrote: Thread

Leng Plateau wrote:
Thread limit! (Totally unenforceable but let's give it a try) New concept for this thread to give anyone a chance to respond without feeling steamrolled or cornered. One person, one posting. No being critical of anyone else's opinions or willies caused by factions. Just an interesting polling of thoughts and where they come from.

Thu, 2014-10-09 17:45

#38

Evilnerf

How is sharing the same

How is sharing the same habitat a negative? In this post-fall world, eceryone is competing for resources. Your logic could apply to anyone and everyone. Besides, most Neo Octopi live in Europa, Ceres or Atlantica. If a human has rights in these places, then why should an uplift, with the same sentient life not have rights on Mars or Luna? As far as Octopi being sociopaths, it must make it way easier to deny someone their rights to exist and procreate when you make such broad accusations against an entire species. Even if you spoke truly, does a sociopath who has committed no crime have less right to self determination and agency then anyone else?

Sat, 2014-10-11 04:24

#39

Chrontius

ShadowDragon8685 wrote

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Kavlrya wrote:
They're both transhuman iterations of the Spartan warrior ideal in their own way... They may *appear* different, but they're still marked by a contempt for the weak and love of naked strength. You can't negotiate with either. They'll have to be crushed utterly at some point to secure the well-being of the majority of transhumanity, and yet they are unredeemed warmongers. The difference mainly lies in attitudes towards technology. The Jovians are totalitarian cishumanists, while the Ultimates are totalitarian posthumanists. Both are a *very* scary bunch to live next to...
Sic 'em on each other, mop up the survivors?

I [i]literally[/i] LOL'd. It was not a nice laugh.

Tue, 2014-10-21 19:49

#40

Ilmarinen

Cognite.

Cognite. What do we know about them? Only that they were the company responsible for the Lost generation, the only company to have close ties with Factors, and also the company that uplifts are terrified of. The other hypercorps are mostly in it for the money, but I can't help feeling that Cognite is planning something big.

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[------------/Nation States/-----------] [-----/Representative Democracy/-----] [--------/Regulated Capitalism/--------]

Tue, 2014-10-21 20:46

#41

ORCACommander ORCACommander's picture

And they associate with Nine

And they associate with Nine Lives