Price of expensive plans.
After reading transhuman I realised just how beneficial it is for PCs to get plans rather than goods. I also feel it will make my life easier in terms of making shore they have the tools for a job. I was even thinking of saying that the PCs can start the game with a free copy of anything they buy the plans for at the start of the game (eg if you buy the plans for a combat knife at character gen you also get a free combat knife, if you want it)
The rules clearly state that plans for an item are one cost category more expensive than the item itself. Nice and easy
But then I thought about the price of plans for something that is already expensive, or even expensive with an increased minimum. At character generation what should I charge for these plans? What would they cost in an old or transitional economy. What favour level would it be to get them in a new economy.
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Price of expensive plans.
Sun, 2013-09-15 11:51
#1
Price of expensive plans.
Sun, 2013-09-15 19:05
#2
I think I read somewhere that
I think I read somewhere that the price of more costly than expensive is 20k +10k per additional price step beyond expensive.
Edit before posting: Found it. Its on (Core Rulebook, p. 296).
Edit: I recall that a different RPG called Nova Praxis did something similar. If you had the blueprints for a piece of gear (they called them templates), that you could start the game with up to 3 manufactured units of the said gear. Of course, the templates costs 2 price step higher, but the system supported more price categories.
It should also be noted that game doesn't give money values for goods. It is assumed that everything was bought with rep... unless you refused to be a citizen then you had some sort of underground bartering system. In Eclipse phase, you know that next price category up was 4 to 5 times more expensive than the previous step.
Mon, 2013-09-16 03:43
#3
I didnt know that rule...
I was just charging 5x the cost of the item for the blueprint...
one issue with this though... if you have a character with an 80% interface: fabber and a bunch of 80 science and engeneering skills... why cant they just make their own blueprints or copy existing ones? why pay for anything and as a GM how do I control it?
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Mon, 2013-09-16 07:19
#4
Baalbamoth wrote:one issue
but the objects are also far more complex.
As a GM, I would say players can create blueprints, but they need to put in a *lot* of man-hours.
I see that the ITER fusion project consortium has clocked up a million man hours so far - assuming a factor of 10 faster design in EP because fusion is well understood, and a factor of 10 because of better engineering, and a factor of 10 because of simspace acceleration and forking... in EP designing a new fusion reactor blueprint can be done in merely 1000 man-hours. Looking at an example software project suggests a few thousand man-days, so if we assume a factor 10-100 improvement due to EP tech it will still take 10-100 man-days. The Linux 3.6 kernel is 15.9 million lines of code: going by the "10 lines of good code per day" estimate in The Mythical Man-Month, assuming this was 10 times too pessimistic, assuming EP tech is 10-100 times better and throwing in an extra factor of 100 because everything is open source means the PC can make something of equal complexity (a robot or morph?) in 160-1600 man-days.
Sure, PCs can make blueprints. But they will not be adventuring much.
Why doesn't elite programmers make their own Microsoft Word or Photoshop instead of buying them?
The reason is that the amount of work in making a blueprint is immense. In the best case it consists of stringing together open source modules, but even there you need to make sure everything is bug-free - something that is very, very tricky to do without extensive testing (Windows 8 had 1.24 *billion* man-hours testing - imagine how much you would want for nanotechnology). Engineering in EP is amazingly more easier than today, —

Mon, 2013-09-16 10:29
#5
Why stealing (plans) is bad
Stealing plans, or copying an item by running it backwards through a hacked fabber, are valid ways to obtain them in the Eclipse Phase setting. There are some issues though. DRM is alive and rabid in-setting; items may have built-in authorization systems. "ERROR 37: This Ecto cannot connect to the mesh to confirm your authentication." Plus, if you get caught with pirated goods in Planetary Consortium and much of Morningstar space, its fines (both credit and rep), confiscation and/or possibly cold-storage time for you.
Designing things yourself has serious issues too. Simulspace might not model certain interactions correctly. Testing, in the real world, is essential. Take for example the M-16 and SA80/L85A1 rifles, given that we all know PCs are going to want to fab weapons. Despite these weapons being expressly designed and cleared for military use, they both were terrible for years after production had started, due to oversights and poor production values. Sure, your plan for a plasma rifle might be perfect in design down to the last molecule, but that doesn't help if 80% of common fabber driver software takes shortcuts in production.
Mon, 2013-09-16 10:51
#6
Armoured wrote:DRM is alive
This is one aspect of the EP universe that I have trouble getting my head around. In several places in the core text, they mention that DRM exists, but it is usually bypassed quickly (one or two months). With the exception of newly-developed items, what is stopping everyone from having blueprints to any item that they want?
Mon, 2013-09-16 11:56
#7
I am happy for my PCs to make
I am happy for my PCs to make or hack aces to plans. Some stuf will be hard to find but for the most part I don’t see much point in restrincting access for the vast majority of items. I might tell somebody that designing the new gun will take 1000 man hours, or the space superiority fighter 20000 man hours, I figure the quality of sim has improved enough that it will perform in sim as it does in the real world, and if they want to rent high speed simulspace to save real time, fine by me. If they want to fork heavily, that’s fine too, just check for the stress of merging.
I know it is probably a bit short but it makes for a more enjoyable game and nobody can really say how much design tools have improved, I would rather ear on the side of fun where the future is so unpredictable.
Hell when I did my training as a computer programmer you had to write code for every little thing, I did a course in SAS programming recently. It has a GUI everything can simply be selected threw menus and wizards. You don’t even need to look at the code for 80% of the tasks. The tools for application development have improved productivity by at least 20 fold.
if I need to restrict something’s availability I will make it hard to make, slow to make or require hard to get materials.
Wed, 2013-09-18 20:06
#8
well
, the character just wants to have an endless supply of expensive grenades, and I feel free everything eliminates one of the main reward systems for any RP game
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Wed, 2013-09-18 20:41
#9
Baalbamoth wrote:, the
Just let them print them. Once they have a big pile the grenades start to speak: "Hi! Greetings and salutations from Nanosys and DirectAction Armaments! We are delighted yo see your enthusiasm for our intellectual property, yet cannot find you in our customer register. We assume this is merely a clerical error and hope you can supply us with your customer number within ten seconds. Nine. Eight. Seven..."
The PC did roll for infosec before mass-manufacturing, right? After all, plenty of blueprints call home.
—

Wed, 2013-09-18 21:00
#10
i sorta found a solution
I've been holding it off by telling him every possible configuration for a grenade has been patented, if you illegally fab them and get caught you can do time.
—
"what do I want? The usual — hundreds of grandchildren, complete dominion over the known worlds, and the pleasure of hearing that all my enemies have died in highly improbable accidents that cannot be connected to me."
Wed, 2013-09-18 22:51
#11
The problem is that the
The problem is that the anarchists do have grenades, some very good ones. And they do original R&D. and suggesting that every possible grenade configuration has been patented implies a level of stagnation that actually greatly increases the horror of the setting “there is no new thought”. And really is eclipse phase about DRM, thorough the books it admits that DRM is broken within months for most new products (not that getting the pirate copy from the cracking cartels is much cheaper)
Naturally an unlimited number of grenades with the abilities you can get for expensive could have an adverse impact on the game but there are better ways to limit availability.
First I am assuming he is operating in corp space otherwise legal repercussions would have no weight. So cornucopia machines don’t exactly grow on trees. This expensive grenade will probably need a full cornucopia machine, not just a faber. Weapons are restricted in corporate space so every cornucopia machine will report any attempts to produce grenades (of any power) to whatever passes for authorities, and probably not make your grenade till it checks your weapons licence. Of cause if you hack the machine you can suppress that while having it work with blueprints that are not approved (this is not the same as the DRM on the blueprint, many cornucopia machines will not use unapproved third party blueprints even if there is no patent or copy write issue) . a modest time hacking can get you around all of this.
The next problem of cause is time. Cornucopia machines don’t necessarily sit idle in unattended rooms. Making an expensive item takes several hours. And a typical desktop cornucopia machine could only make one at a time, larger industrial units wouldn’t work any faster, they would just be able to make several items in parallel. So you’re going to need to have unrestricted access to the cornucopia machine for hours at a minimum and the better part of a day if you want lots of grenades. This will require ether significant outlay of funds (to rent probably from criminals) or some heavy hacking and social engineering (to access a corporate model or acquire your own when private ownership is not permitted).
Next there is raw materials. We are in the habit of thinking of a grenade as a metal container, filled with explosives with a detonator. Probably could be built entirely from Fe, O,N,C,H all easily available in the inner system. But that would be a cheap grenade and expensive grenade will include sensors and a smart material case, and probably more processing power than the computer I am typing this on. I couldn’t say exactly without knowing what model of grenade he wanted to make but chances are it includes some element that is not cheap and easy to find. Combining money and rep might be able to solve this however in some places the materials will be simply unavailable, there may be an inferior substitute (lower the grenades stats in some way) or there may not.
So things you need
Programming: nanofabrication
Infosec
perseption
Networking: criminals (or corporate)
Some social skills
G-Rep (or C-Rep)
A significant investment of time and effort.
A risk of being traced or discovered (don’t over use)
A possibility of local unavailability (don’t over use)
So after taking all those your large supply of expensive grenades can hardly be called free.
Thu, 2013-09-19 03:27
#12
Baalbamoth wrote:I've been
You seem to be unaware of how patents work. By design, patents are supposed to expire. The people who control a patent can legally tell other people to stop producing goods that use their patent. The government will support the patent owner in this regard. In the US (if I recall correctly), patents only last 20 years (starting at the date the person first summits the paper work).
The reason for all this it to encourage the development of original ideas and designs. By allowing people to control patents, it enables people to develop new ideas and designs without the fear that someone else will steal them, or copy them and out producing the person who came up with the ideas and designs. If this did not happen, society would likely stagnate, as few people would be willing to invest the considerable time and resources in coming up with new stuff.
Another factor is that patents require a minimum amount of documentation (more gets more favorable results). Not only does help prove that an idea is original, but it provides documentation that is usable after the patent expires. In a way, the patent system becomes something of a library of ideas. It may provide people with the means to get profit in the short term, thereby encouraging their hard work, but after that an idea become free for anyone to use. Likewise, the documentation process helps ensure an idea is documented well, where as an idea made public domain from day one might not be well documented (and might instead be a confusing mess).
----
Also a lot of patents probably belonged to people who died during the fall. I think it is safe to say that those patents are no longer under anyone's control and free to use.
Of course you are free to change how patent work in the future, where a hypercorp can patent an idea they didn't create and all patent lasts forever. This however may (probably will) have a negative effect on society for many reasons (some of the factors I've already mentioned).