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I've found a bug in mechanics?

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Wed, 2012-09-05 22:46
#1
Kaworu Kaworu's picture
I've found a bug in mechanics?
Guys, I think we have a problem :-/ Let's assume I want to play a Infomorph-Infolife. My character never ever have a body and it's pretty logical to give him 0 in physical atributes (as SOM f.e). BUT if the Infomorph will be upload to Case, it still will be SOM 0! So the character cannot be uploaded?! But since the character never ever have had a physical body, it's really logical to give him 0 SOM... Other example: There are two characters in Splicers biomods- A and B. A is an intelektualist, B is a psychical worker. A have COG 20 and SOM 5, B COG 5 and SOM 20. A and B are exchanging their biomods. So... Skinny Splicer is transforming into muscular, and muscular is loosing his physical power? 0_O I think physical attributes and pure "spiritual" should be separated in mechanical sense... or I am wrong and there is any simple explanation?
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Wed, 2012-09-05 23:11
Tyrnis Tyrnis's picture
On the contrary, Character A
On the contrary, Character A has COG 20, SOM 5. Character B has COG 5, SOM 20. Let's also assume that Character A's splicer has a bonus of +5 COG, while Character B's has a bonus of +5 SOM, so: Character A: COG 25, SOM 5 Character B: COG 5, SOM 25 Now, they swap bodies. Character A: COG 20, SOM 10 Character B: COG 10, SOM 20 Above and beyond that, even if Character A sleeves into a Fury (+10 SOM) that means they're still at 5 less SOM (15) than Character B in Character A's original splicer with no SOM bonus at all (20). It's also worth bearing in mind that AGIs are going to be taught how to use a body, even if they're an infomorph -- even if they don't sleeve, they're going to need to create simulmorphs to operate in many simspaces and VR environments, so while they might not be quite as crippled as a biomorph would be, SOM still matters.
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Thu, 2012-09-06 01:33
Kaworu Kaworu's picture
Ok, what if they are Splicers
Ok, what if they are Splicers of the same series, made with +5 Ref? I know I know, definition of SOM tell about "ability of pushing your morph to max", but we know it's other definition of "physical strenght". I'm just wondering why in the same morphs one character have greater physical strenght than other, since in physical sense the morphs ale identital (before and after exchange). Of course, if someone live long enought in one morph, that person can make it more powerful by exercise and diet, but at the very beginning it should be just average SOM. And I don't catch why personality of bodybuider makes morph stronger just in moment of resleeving. I really don't catch. PS. The problem is also in case of upgrading morph to better. If we have Splicer sciencist with max COG and max Academics for that level of COG (80) and the sciencist wants to have Menton/Savant? What about points, max level of ability etc.?
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Thu, 2012-09-06 03:16
Tyrnis Tyrnis's picture
In response to your PS -
In response to your PS - Morph bonuses are treated the same way as gear bonuses, so there's no issue with the cost for abilities. If Character A has a COG of 20 on her Ego, and raises her Academics: Astrophysics to 80, at a cost of 80 CP, then sleeves into a Menton (+10 COG), she's now at Astrophysics 90 for no additional cost. Likewise, if she sleeves into a morph with limited mental faculties (COG max of 10), her Astrophysics drops to 70 for the duration of her time in that morph. You do run into issues like a character with an Ego COG of 25 losing out on bonuses from sleeving into a Menton (they only get +5, because the cap for Mentons is at 30), making the morph designed to encourage genius a poor fit for someone who's _already_ one. If somebody doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to respond to the rest tomorrow -- it's rather late. The short answer is that SOM isn't perfect, and raw lifting capacity is one of the areas that highlights that most starkly -- an industrial or combat synthmorph with SOM 20 should be able to lift far more than a splicer with SOM 20, for example -- but as an abstraction for representing an individual's innate capabilities in a given area, it's not nonsensical, either. Also in the meantime, I encourage you to hunt around for Decivre's houserules...they might be a little more to your liking.
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Thu, 2012-09-06 04:21
Wintermaster Wintermaster's picture
Since Somatics are how well
Since Somatics are how well you control the body, the interpretation of the group at the table turned out this way: Someone with a high Somatics is like a trained acrobat, a learned boxer, or skilled martial artist. They control their body to the extent that a neotenic's punch might make a Fury cry out in pain, simply because they know the body, they can push it to an extent others might be mentally blocking themselves from using, fearing they'd damage the morph. It implies natural awareness how things work with the body, and how to hold onto it. It doesn't exactly grant 'free skills' but a good Somatics is a good start. Also, I think there's a minimum score of 5, so Somatics 0 for even Infomorph isn't possible I believe.
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Thu, 2012-09-06 04:41
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Kaworu wrote:Guys, I think we
Kaworu wrote:
Guys, I think we have a problem :-/ Let's assume I want to play a Infomorph-Infolife. My character never ever have a body and it's pretty logical to give him 0 in physical atributes (as SOM f.e). BUT if the Infomorph will be upload to Case, it still will be SOM 0! So the character cannot be uploaded?! But since the character never ever have had a physical body, it's really logical to give him 0 SOM...
I don't really see the problem. With SOM 0, the Infolife will have no concept of operating in the physical world. For it, using a morph would be like trying to explain color to a blind person.
Kaworu wrote:
There are two characters in Splicers biomods- A and B. A is an intelektualist, B is a psychical worker. A have COG 20 and SOM 5, B COG 5 and SOM 20. A and B are exchanging their biomods. So... Skinny Splicer is transforming into muscular, and muscular is loosing his physical power? 0_O
SOM isn't just about physical strength. All RPG systems have a certain granularity that you just have to deal with. It is no different than the expert clockmaker and master archer both rely on the same stat, or the marathon runner versus the body builder. And it goes further than that. SOM is for example the stat used for Unarmed Combat. You don't just need strength and cardio to fight, you need speed, precision, balance, the ability to apply leverage and use your weight. These properties are also rolled into the SOM stat. Bottom line is, we'd need 100 or more stats to accurately model the differences between people, so game designers have to sacrifice realism to make a system that is workable and playable in practice.
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Thu, 2012-09-06 05:10
Smokeskin Smokeskin's picture
Kaworu wrote:Guys, I think we
Kaworu wrote:
Guys, I think we have a problem :-/ Let's assume I want to play a Infomorph-Infolife. My character never ever have a body and it's pretty logical to give him 0 in physical atributes (as SOM f.e). BUT if the Infomorph will be upload to Case, it still will be SOM 0! So the character cannot be uploaded?! But since the character never ever have had a physical body, it's really logical to give him 0 SOM...
I don't really see the problem. With SOM 0, the Infolife will have no concept of operating in the physical world. For it, using a morph would be like trying to explain color to a blind person.
Kaworu wrote:
There are two characters in Splicers biomods- A and B. A is an intelektualist, B is a psychical worker. A have COG 20 and SOM 5, B COG 5 and SOM 20. A and B are exchanging their biomods. So... Skinny Splicer is transforming into muscular, and muscular is loosing his physical power? 0_O
SOM isn't just about physical strength. All RPG systems have a certain granularity that you just have to deal with. It is no different than the expert clockmaker and master archer both rely on the same stat, or the marathon runner versus the body builder. And it goes further than that. SOM is for example the stat used for Unarmed Combat. You don't just need strength and cardio to fight, you need speed, precision, balance, the ability to apply leverage and use your weight. These properties are also rolled into the SOM stat. Bottom line is, we'd need 100 or more stats to accurately model the differences between people, so game designers have to sacrifice realism to make a system that is workable and playable in practice.
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Thu, 2012-09-06 19:42
NewtonPulsifer NewtonPulsifer's picture
There's alternate mechanics
There's alternate mechanics proposed here that might satisfy you.
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Mon, 2012-09-10 09:49
Decivre Decivre's picture
Aptitudes have a minimum of 1
Aptitudes have a minimum of 1, so none of this is an issue. Though admittedly, I can see making an AGI with SOM of 1 simply because you have no intention of ever taking on a physical form.
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Mon, 2012-09-10 16:31
Arenamontanus Arenamontanus's picture
I had an AGI NPC with 0 SOM
I had an AGI NPC with 0 SOM simply because it was not constructed to ever handle a body: it literally had no concept of what to do with it. Maybe 1 SOM corresponds to an AGI that has at least an intellectual understanding of what a body is supposed to do ("It is an actuator system for transducing volitional states into mechanical force, or energy into patterns in a dedicated sensory buffer, right?")
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Tue, 2012-09-11 23:28
It that must no... It that must not be named's picture
I'd think that even AI would
I'd think that even AI would have a concept of the physical/materiel world outside the mesh so would have as a minimum a SOM of 1simply because it knows that physical bodies exist. Also, most AIs use avatars of some sort that in some way usually mimic a body.
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