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Revised Jovians

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Sun, 2011-01-09 08:03

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Revised Jovians

I've always been disappointed with how the Jovian Junta have been portrayed Eclipse Phase. It seems symptomatic of a distorted polarization of our own reality. Here you have transhumanity in all their glory and then there are the Junta, all alone in their little corner and content to growl at anyone who comes close. Even the Hyper-Corps, practically slavers, are more well regarded. It seems like these people were designed to be the Enemy or one of them. How boring. But how do we change all that? 1. Rename the Junta the Confederation. They could have arisen from people who rejected traditional transhuman values and choose to migrate to sub-prime turf so they could live in peace. As more of them came, those that were there already aided them in setting up habitats. A sort of mutual aid pact was then born. This makes them somewhat like anarchist but in reality they would be more like a series of city-states. 2. Drop the Bio-Conservative shroud. Focus the Jovians on mortality instead of remaining pure genetically. Communities could consist of any mixture of morphs but they all have one thing in common, death. You don't have to make them solely biological also. One city-state might consist of AGI who choose a permanent deletion date. 3. Add some developed philosophies and factions. Have religious communities coexisting with evolutionary ones. For example, one community might deliberately shorten their lifespans so that original individuals constantly arise. 4. Make them good at something. Perhaps living their environment makes them masters at environmental shielding and architecture. Let them trade raw materials with the outside world, build up co-dependence. Using Jovian designs might be a staple in some areas. 5. Like any society, there will be antagonistic elements. Be free to put them, but please limit their aggressiveness. They don't want to rule the solar system. They just want to left alone. 6. Give them a mixed bit of allies. Some of oligarchs might have family in Jove and many city-states may sympathize with their anarchist neighbors. The possibilities for inter-state conflicts are endless. 7. Give a them a face. The hyper-shortened morphs I mentioned might even be pervasive beyond Jupiter. They could be seen as highly active and driven people, certainly when compared with immortals. "As quick as a Jove" might be a saying for getting something done fast. Anymore thoughts on to change the Jovians from faceless fascists to rich in character communities would be appreciated.

Sun, 2011-01-09 09:58

TBRMInsanity TBRMInsanity's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

1. Junta is a slang term used by other factions against the Jovian Republic. Jovians would refer to themselves as having a Republic government (ie Rule by Law). Each Jovian City State has their own personal Bi-laws but there are Republic wide laws that apply to anyone wanting to be Jovian (such as no nanotechnology or AGIs). 2. The Bio-Conservative movement is mostly about mortality (and that resleeving is an illusion of immortality). Dropping the Bio-Conservative meme but keeping the acceptance of death would turn the Jovians into a Death cult (which would be worse IMHO). 3. I fully agree with this statement. The Jovians need to have City State specific quirks (not just an overall culture). Maybe vary the City States the same way each US State or Central American government is like now (or actually take those cultures and apply them to each Hab). 4. The Jovians have the best spy agency of all the public factions (with the exception of maybe Firewall and Project Osma), they also are still ahead in weapons development and weapons manufacturing (they are the only faction with a Warship). In a person to person fight they may lose to other factions like the Ultimates and Planetary Consortium, but on a naval scale they would win most wars. 5. The Jovians are aggressive because they see Transhumanity as a threat and they are surrounded by Transhumanity. The current Jovian society is similar to American culture right after 9/11. Jovian citizens are constantly reminded of the Fall and those that caused it (ie transhumanity). Imagine what the USA would be like if the US government was able to convince Americans that every other country in the world was made of terrorists. That is what Jovian society is about, they are the last bastion of humanity. Currently the Jovians do not have the ability to conquer the entire Solar System (they are having trouble just bringing the entire Jovian system under their full control). I would say the Jovian's long term plans would be to control the Jovian system (and it's Trojans) and then maybe strike out at the Titanians and Scum barges between the Asteroid Belt and Neptune. I never got the impression they wanted to conquer the entire system. 6. The Jovians are on cordial terms with various Hypercorps as they supply them with raw materials from the Inner system that they normally can't get in the Jovian system. They also have allies in every Bio-Conservative habitat in the Solar System. 7. The Jovians are the Bio-Conservative face. We won't accept the illusion of immortality, we won't repeat the mistakes of our fathers and cause a second Fall, we won't abandon humanity, but allow it to rise up again! I would like to see a faction in the Jovian Republic that pushes accelerated natural selection and accelerated education of the youth (not accelerated growth like seen with the Lost, just a method of downloading the experiences of past generations into the minds of the children so they learn everything they need before they are an adult).

—

Jovian Motto: Your mind is original. Preserve it. Your body is a temple. Maintain it. Immortality is an illusion. Forget it.

Sun, 2011-01-09 20:05

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

What's wrong with death cults? Would it be anymore alien than hive-minds or amorphous blobs? Besides it's not like they would be worshiping death. Instead it would be a acceptance of it as an end. There might be many reasons for it, spiritual or otherwise. What would unite the Jovians is there rejection of transhuman immortality and a desire to live apart from it. You can have plenty of interesting stuff just by doing this without turning the Jovians into bogeymen. Maybe I was to rash in discarding Bio-Conservatism. It would still be present in city-states but it wouldn't be universal as in current fluff. I have trouble believing that even hardened conservatives couldn't cooperate with more liberal-minded. Just because that is the atmosphere of today's politics doesn't mean it will hold true in the future. Personally, I have trouble believing that any belief can survive without compromise, especially Bio-Conservatism. You boil down their ideas and all you get is a choice to be mortal and remain what you are. The use of nanites, AGI, and other traditionally transhuman technologies is not excluded as long as the effects are not permanent. Instead what we have is parody of irrational conservatism served with a nice of dish demonization. It degrades the quality of Eclipse Phase as a whole. Hell, the way the game is set it's almost impossible to play a Jove in Firewall. What does that leave us with? Being your typical Saturday Morning Cartoon Show Villain. Just to be clear I am not Bio-Conservative myself, and the thought of immortality is pleasing to me. Still, the idea that those who choose not to live forever are misguided and need to saved is disgusting.

Sun, 2011-01-09 20:29

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Death Cult doesn't fit with my vision of Jovians either. As to the character concepts-you have to accept certain limitations, however most popular limitations attributed to Jovians are mostly imagined-they have no problem adopting implants as long as they are safe and not extreme(the same seems to apply to morphs). Not having cortical stacks is actually somewhat beneficial-nobody can capture your Ego and change it. Since Jovian republic seems to allow backups( I would guess for high-ops, soldiers and important members of society), no death is permanent for a Jovian character. I would have the Republic keep a tight hold on the backups-it ensures loyalty of citizens and agents. Likewise nothing against less extreme biomods-of course with psychotherapy after returning to the Republic. Other traits were mentioned, also there was a lot of discussion on Jovian Republic on the forums. See here: http://www.eclipsephase.com/jovian-briefings-volume-1 http://www.eclipsephase.com/jovian-republic-long-term-goals-relations-re... http://www.eclipsephase.com/secret-assets-jovian-junta http://www.eclipsephase.com/jovian-republic-fall http://www.eclipsephase.com/jovian-morph-new-conservative-morph-idea Combine the information discussed above and I am sure you would get something interesting. Culturally I am also going to give the Republic a quirk like Fall Remembrance Days, where each school class remembers location or a group that perished during the Fall and their actions, while the population of cities remember their city/region of origin on Earth.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Sun, 2011-01-09 20:48

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

The bio-conservatism isn't exactly no-compromise, except on the topic of suicide. The belief is, reasonably, any time you remove an ego from a morph, you are committing murder. That's it. Sure, you can 'compromise' around murder, but it's a bit of a touchy subject. There's no reason Jovians don't have significant modifications. There's also no reason to assume that they won't make specialty morphs like furies and mentons - but the ego in there must be the original, so it still needs to go through a childhood (and so the Jovian furies available now are mostly around 8). They probably would be willing to compromise about forking - it's not killing someone, but it isn't exactly natural or safe either.

Sun, 2011-01-09 21:00

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Quote:
They probably would be willing to compromise about forking - it's not killing someone, but it isn't exactly natural or safe either.

Alpha forking is illegal in JR, just like in most of Inner System ;) Page 273. A thing often forgot by EP fans I believe ;) Although I think that Black Ops in JR have nothing against it. As to compromise regarding Ego-I have them copying it,but it is restored only in cases of violent death or treason. They have central backup facilities with egos being redistributed between them-so none of the data forms full conscious personality. As to resleeving-they use the slow method that has no interruptions between being in one morph and another.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Sun, 2011-01-09 21:32

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

I guess what I am getting at is something like Orion's Arm. In that setting you have flats living next splicers living next to amorphous alien blobs all in a community crafted by a hyper-intelligent seed AI. There is cross species conflict but it's now where near the level of antagonism present in Eclipse Phase. My point maybe then is that a lot of the conflict between Bio-Conservatives and Transhumans seems forced. There really isn't an in game reason why the neighbors next door who helped you set up your habit couldn't be Jovian. My own experience is that most prejudices drop when you are in prolonged exposure to different cultures. Hell, even if that did not work there is no reason for the Jovians to become a military state. Their turf is sub-prime, not even worth colonizing by Transhumans. Any enemy that comes there is going to have to invest a lot of resources just to keep it. Certainly their isolation would then be a valid defense. I guess then that all I want is to change the Jovians from being BSG clones to semi-isolates who embrace mortality. They might not even be all isolates. One of my ideas for the City States is for a community that beliefs immortality stymies natural evolution. In reaction to this, they have shortened their own lifespans but on the other hand speed up their metabolism. This allows them to accomplish a lot a very short time. Also, in order to make them competitive with forks, they have developed a sort of racial memory that transfers to offspring. It isn't that complex but it allows them to have a sort of intuition when in situations their ancestors were in. I also like the idea of a city that uses temporary transhuman modes extensively. That means they go to work with near superhuman abilities but regress later.

Sun, 2011-01-09 22:11

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Double post.

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Sun, 2011-01-09 22:17

CodeBreaker CodeBreaker's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

I have made it a point to stay out of discussions about the Jovian Republic in the past, primarily because some people (mainly those arguing that the Republic is "ooh stereotypical evil nasty man") seem to have developed s tendency to take the very limited information we have and run with it. Nevermind that the current source we have for a lot of the information we do have is suspect, being drawn from a potentially in game voice chapter. So, some things about the Republic; The Junta - Taken from the Core rulebook, it is primarily the rest of the Outer system that refers to the Republic as a junta. It is not it's agreed upon name, the inner system (being on cold but communicative terms) probably doesn't use it all that much. Basically a whole bunch of anarchist nut jobs (hyperbole!) calls them that and everyone seems to have picked it up. As far as I can see the core book actually uses junta and republic fairly interchangingly. Personally I think this is a case of author preferancem, with one or two favouring republic and one or two liking junta. Forking - It is out right banned in the Republic. Alpha, Beta, doesn't matter what, if it's a copy of your brainstate that has been imprinted onto a morph that isn't "you", you are not allowed to have it. The Military - Let's not forget how the Republic came into power. It was a military coup. And military coups tend to have certain things in common. Most are fairly corrupt, most are paranoid as hell (if we managed to take over what is stopping them from doing it?), and most will crush any signs of rebellion with brutal ruthlessness. This is not unprecedented. It has happened time and time again even today. The military holds the power in the Republic, and I doubt they are going to let it go. The "Oh Unrealistic" thing - North Korea, Soviet Russia, McCarthy-esque America, countless South American power blocs, modern China at it's very worst, many African nations, colonial England during some of its more merciless years. Everyone of them has had a hand in the same kind of things the Republic is doing, but for some reason because the Republic is in space it's entirely unbelievable for some reason. Paranoia is running rampant; Yup, plenty of precedent for that. Government sponsored atrocities (rumoured, I might add); Holy crap is history littered with examples. Censorship all around; Plenty of that to go around even today. The Republic literally does nothing that a nation hasn't already set precedent for. Firewall is a fairly anarchistic group. The entire organisation is planned from the get go to be decentralised, to eschew positions of power in favour of groupthink, and as such it will attract people with the same views. As such, any in character text from a Firewall sentinel, or an ally, is likely to be disapproving of the Republic as a whole. But that doesn't mean that the rest of society is any better. The PC for example. They are in many ways just as bigoted and backwards as the Republic. Uplifts and AGI are essentially pimped out as property. Morphological freedom is restricted, although through societal pressures rather than lawful ones. but guess what? Those societal pressures exist for a reason, and many owe their birth the hypercorp memetic research teams who are paid lots and lots of credits to make sure they stay at the fore front of everyones minds. They censor information just as much as the Junta, although more subtly and probably with a tad more tact (Alert! Outer System anarchist plot to destroy station thwarted by PC Overwatch agents. And now back to those pesky propaganda streams that the Titanians keep pumping out!). And the Anarchists? As has been noted occasionally on these boards, the Outer System can be just as nasty for a person as it would be anywhere else. Have an idea that isn't popular, but you know is right? Rep hit! Have to organise an event and end up pissing some people off? Rep hit! Generally socially awkward with a habit of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time? You know, like a lot of some of the smartest people around. You are fucking screwed, your rep is going to be taking so many hits that you are going to have a hard time getting anything done. The Outer system is just as repressive as anywhere else, it's just that it's repressive to those who go against the social norm. So that isn't really directed at anyone, it's just after a few months of watching discussions on the Republic I think I an finally ready to join in the conversation. Just wish it wasn't from my iPad. Long posts on this thing are difficult dammit. Edit: On the city states thing. I think this might already be the case in the Jovian system. They seem to operate much like the PC does, with each separate area self governing with an overarching government in place to keep everyone in check. They clearly don't have total control over the Jovian system, even if they do enforce a military embargo on anything using the area as a launching point. They don't control Europa, and Ganymede and Callisto and only tentatively held. Hell, Callisto has the largest non Republic habitat in the Jovian system, with a respectable 2 million people living free of Republic influence.

—

Sun, 2011-01-09 22:54

#10

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Thanks for replying. You bring up a good point that the outer system is pretty much a terrible place and that the reputation system isn't anywhere near perfect. Bad stuff happens to good people and anyone who is smart enough can game the system. The sheer fact that the Jovians are one of the few militarized states in existence puzzling. One assumes that given the chaos of the Fall, there would be plenty of time for these things to arise. The sheer chaos of the Outer System will make any opposition limited in scale. Even if the anarchist organized, wouldn't they then seize to anarchist? Maybe it's just the unrealistic social structure of Eclipse Phase but these things seriously bother me. Jupiter seems like a place isolates would live, turf nobody is in an hurry to take.The belt and the rest of outer system would be rife with mini-states and principalities. Hell, when anyone can take a cornicopia machine and build their own space fleet, conflict ought to be just a facet of life. Sure you have freedom but is it really worth the price?

Mon, 2011-01-10 01:30

#11

Shark_Sandwich Shark_Sandwich's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

I share some of your frustrations with the Jovians, and have talked about this in previous threads. To me, the issue with the Jovians as presented in the core book is not what they are (in this I agree with Codebreaker--paranoid, militaristic, insular is not unbelievable or unreasonable), but why they are the way they are (there was a strong undercurrent in the original materials of "they're conservatives, of course they will be dicks"). I'd encourage you to take a look at some of the other threads on the Jovians--there are tons of great ideas in them. I particularly like emphasizing the survivor/survivalist element. It can be very flavorful, and provides a cohesive reason for being for the Jovians. As far was why there aren't more militaristic factions, military power is expensive. Even in post-scarcity economics, dedicating lots of labor and manpower to building and army and navy means lots less of the same on infrastructure projects that I think most of the factions just see as a bigger priority. There are some older threads on space warfare, and the take home for me from them was that transporting an army across the solar system, protecting it en route, and delivering it to a place to make a useful impact is going to be very difficult and costly. Particularly since the factions are only 10 years removed from the Fall, there hasn't been the time or enthusiasm for building the kinds of forces that can conduct far ranging offensive operations. The one example we have is the PC attack on Locus, but there is a strong sense that the PC thought they would face only token resistance, and the implication that they found these kinds of operations more difficult than they anticipated.

Mon, 2011-01-10 02:58

#12

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

It's not that I believe there can militaristic societies in Eclipse Phase, hell there should be plenty of them. It's just that why are the Jovians the ones pursuing it? Against a transhuman force, the Joves are just a plain disadvantage discounting the plucky young flats trope. There long term goals should then revolve around avoiding conflict with an obviously superior enemy. If I had to base them on anything it would be the Hider Clades from Orion's Arm. These guys are basically super survivalist, determined to outlast all the extensional threats in a galaxy littered with dead civilizations and the mysterious "Dawn Hunters". Good stuff there. So in my mind, the Joves are survivalist first and isolationist. They look at the rest of Transhumanity and see a whole society trying jump the singularity. Sure some might make it, but many will probably fail trying to brute force their way to godhood. In doing so they'll likely take out everyone around them. The Joves isolationism is then more a thing of pragmatism rather than prejudice. I'd like think that how the Joves are portrayed in EP is just through the prejudicial lenses of Trans-humanity. Who knows what they may be doing? Building massive bunkers within Jupiter folds. Crafting a fleet of sleeper ships to save humanity from the next mass extinction. This certainly adds a reason on why the Joves might be seen as hyped up killers. Their "War-Fleet" is the vanguard of their much larger evacuation one, Homeworld Style.

Tue, 2011-01-11 12:46

#13

Extrasolar Angel Extrasolar Angel's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Quote:
Their turf is sub-prime, not even worth colonizing by Transhumans.

Actually that's dead wrong. Besides Saturn, the Jovian system is the richest area in Sol System, not only in mineral resources, easy access to volatiles and of course water, but also with enormous energy resources(Io Flux tube for example).Not to mention that unlike Mars,Earth,Venus you have easier way to transport material and people between Jovian moons. In fact in most settings where authors studied a bit the consequences of Solar System colonization, places like Saturn or Jupiter with its moon become in the long run the centres of the system. Essentially they are a planetary systems of their own. The Inner System has nothing to compete with them. If you like Orion's Army-see Jovian League: http://www.orionsarm.com/xcms.php?r=oaeg-view-article&egart_uid=4682fa17...

Quote:
Forking - It is out right banned in the Republic. Alpha, Beta, doesn't matter what, if it's a copy of your brainstate that has been imprinted onto a morph that isn't "you", you are not allowed to have it.

Actually Alpha forking is banned in most of inner system as well.It's not a Jovian-only type of thing.

—

[I]Raise your hands to the sky and break the chains. With transhumanism we can smash the matriarchy together.[/i]

Mon, 2011-01-10 09:21

#14

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Definitely a lot of good stuff (and I agree with almost all of it!) Regarding forking - yes, it's illegal. My point was, yes, they're willing to 'compromise' on it the same way murder and torture are illegal in the US, but we still compromise when the price is right and the person doing the murder/torture is also the government. I suspect Jovian PCs will have plenty of moral, but few legal issues preventing forking. Regarding good neighbors - A lot of this discussion reminds me of the Republican/Democrat divide in the US. While you're talking about Republicans, they're greedy fascists who love big corporations and hate poor people. But when you're talking about Bob across the way, he's a great guy who was quick to help you with your move. The major difference is, right now there is a constant series of 'incidents' which put the different parties in conflict. Following the shooting last week, I'm seeing a lot of hate getting flung at Republicans in general, and a lot of Republicans flinging back at Democrats in defense. I imagine that's pretty much the regular state of things while the system is still in so much extreme flux. The Junta is a generalization that everyone outside of the Republic loves to hate. Jovians are individuals, some of whom are cool, and some who are mean. Regarding honesty - I consider the Junta the MOST HONEST faction. Throughout the inner system, it's all mind-games, memetics, politics, trying to play like they're your friend while secretly turning around to manipulate you to do what they want. The rep system rewards people for being superficial and false, because people who are honest about disliking another person are punished. The Jovians will tell it straight - 'we think this is a threat, so we are blocking it. This behavior is dangerous, so it is not allowed. If you break the rules, you will go in for psychosurgery or prison-time.' There's not a lot under the covers there. Don't get me wrong, the Junta is shafting its citizens just as much, if not more than the PC, but at least they're good enough not to tell you it's just a back massage.

Mon, 2011-01-10 17:38

#15

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

What I meant that in the short term the Jovian system is sub-optimal. Saturn and other outer system orbitals are much easier. Of course, if you have the will and time to invest, the Jovian system will be a good investment. However, in Eclipse Phase we're talking about the short term were everyone is still solidifying their power bases. This means going for the lowest hanging fruits and Jove clearly isn't one of them. Just to go off topic for a moment, what is the affect of immorality of the past literature? I was rereading Gilgamesh yesterday for a class and I came to the conclusion that this work was still relevant only because of one reason. Despite being nearly 2500 years old, I could still relate to the characters uncertainty in the face of mortality and the fear that rises from it. This trait seems universal in a lot of out literature yet how would it fair in a future where mortality is outdated?

Tue, 2011-01-11 01:03

#16

Rhyx

Re: Revised Jovians

Quote:
This trait seems universal in a lot of out literature yet how would it fair in a future where mortality is outdated?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdSHeKfZG7c&feature=player_embedded I think this is your answer. People will know of it but it will no longer be relevant.

—

[img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/A_Rep.jpg[/img] 2 [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/R_Rep.jpg[/img] 7 [img]http://boxall.no-ip.org/img/C_Rep.jpg[/img] 2
[img]http://i.imgur.com/qtBZ9.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i.imgur.com/AT25J.jpg[/img]

Tue, 2011-01-11 02:18

#17

LordMunchkin LordMunchkin's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

I think there maybe more than that. Death has been a central theme to all of our cultures since the beginning. Removing that link, may unravel the tapestry that is humanity. In short, humanity will be far more alien than Eclipse Phase presents. Hell, in EP Transhuman culture seems like just a projection of western techno culture with people gabbing on about updates and new tech.

Tue, 2011-01-11 12:05

#18

Rhyx

Re: Revised Jovians

Quote:
Hell, in EP Transhuman culture seems like just a projection of western techno culture with people gabbing on about updates and new tech.

Considering that most of the people from third world countries are probably still in cold storage because they have no marketable skills that would be useful to Hypercorps, that doesn't seem like much of a stretch. Wouldn't a corporate/political entity like the PC want to thaw out customers first?

Quote:
Death has been a central theme to all of our cultures since the beginning. Removing that link, may unravel the tapestry that is humanity.

To which I will add: what "tapestry of humanity" are you talking about? Did exterminating smallpox really make people yearn for it again? "Oh I really miss those days where half my kids would die of diseases I have so many to feed now!" All that matters is how the media is gonna spin it because as cynical as this may be most people will think the way that the media wants them to think. Why? Because they are too busy working and trying to have enough money for food housing and all that other stuff the media says that they should have that particular season. No one wants to be a pariah so the people's view of death is going to be how the media spins it. Chances are the media is gonna spin it very positive because the media is first and foremost a medium of advertising, less death=more viewers watching your commercials and more people buying your trinket. In other words capitalism is going to win over pro-death the circle of life kind of mentality. Also another little caveat: the closer you get to death, the less you want it to happen. So in my minds eye most of the true "Died in the wool" :D bio conservatives are actually people who are young and still sport some kind of delusion of immortality. I suspect the PC is going to get a LOT of "political refugees" the older the population of the Jovian Republic gets. So to come back to the subject at hand, people will look upon our death obsessed society and be confused. "Wow there's a lot of death in their littrature, it seems that most of their works are about them dying!" "Well remember that back in the day everyone underwent true death due to biological breakdown. This was before egos were invented." "What a terrible terrible waste of resources, imagine what those people knew and brought with them to their graves, that's truly awful." I mean think of how we look at medieval medicine in the times when mercury was a viable disease treatment and the four humors were the cutting edge of medical tech? when we think back to them there's a momentary melancholy at all the lives lost due to ignorance, a bit of pity for them not knowing any better and then the beat goes on. So that collective consciousness apocalypse that you are worried about isn't going to happen because if that were the case it would have already happened at every big turning point in human history: the fall of the roman empire, the renaissance, the industrial revolution...if a basic break would have had to happen it would have happened much before.

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Tue, 2011-01-11 16:53

#19

nezumi.hebereke nezumi.hebereke's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Classic Freudian psychology describes to primary drivers for most human behavior, thanatos and and eros, life-drives. Let us assume for a moment that the average person in EP has no real concern they will ever die. Thanatos still applies though, since it applies to more than just literal death. It is metaphorical in the sense of failure, loss of self, loss of identity, humiliation, etc. And even without death, the Eros drive still applies in its full strength. we do have examples of people who think they will never die. They are called teenagers. And yes, I am not always copletely sure they should be considered 'human'. However, they still have most normal human drives, and their only real limitation in participating in the tapestry of human life is their lack of experience. I really don't think that the eradication of death will be the issue it may be portrayed as, and if it is, there is an easy medical cure (i.e., death).

Tue, 2011-01-11 16:55

#20

travelnjones travelnjones's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

I was wondering a couple of things In ways it seems like they are saying Space Nazis for the Jovians. I don't like that generic an idea. But if they were to say yes these were people from earth who actively agree with the tenants of fascism and have worked to emulate pass earth governments. I would be much more accepting of that idea. How would you folks feel about a less generic more actively tied to 20th century earth form of fascism. On the Bio-conservative side. I was thinking that Dune's butlerian crusade is pretty much a perfect example of this. I'm I correct in seeing Biocon-ism as this sort of fear of thinking machines? How would you handle things like the mentat abilities? Some sort of higher up biomorph just with no cortical stack? Thanks for your thoughts. I am having trouble with grasping the setting at times

Tue, 2011-01-11 22:24

#21

Shark_Sandwich Shark_Sandwich's picture

Re: Revised Jovians

Quote:
On the Bio-conservative side. I was thinking that Dune's butlerian crusade is pretty much a perfect example of this. I'm I correct in seeing Biocon-ism as this sort of fear of thinking machines? How would you handle things like the mentat abilities? Some sort of higher up biomorph just with no cortical stack?

The link with Dune occurred to me as well. I definitely think there would be factions within the Republic that would be interested in experimenting with what it sees as "natural" methods of human enhancement---time compressed XP training regimes, esoteric disciplines a la the Bene Gesserit, etc. On some of the cultural consequences of the technology, it seems to me that the culture of EP hasn't really "grown into" the full ramifications of the technology. It took a while for the consequences of the industrial revolution to fully make themselves felt, and it would take a while for the presence of replaceable bodies to work itself into cultural ideas. Particularly with the Fall coming in between.